SOTD: Too Much Offensive Patience

Q.  Can a baseball offense be too patient?

A.  It can, yes.  If a hitter goes up to the plate, the bat glued to his shoulder, hoping for a walk, he's quickly going to be out of the majors.

Michael Saunders was a case in point -- in April he had 0-2 counts in 40% of his AB's, or something.

My man Earl wrote about this:  patience is seeking your pitch, not letting three pitches go by to start an AB.  He scoffed at hitters who "go up there with the bats glued to their shoulders."

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Q.  Was the Mariners' April offense too patient?

A.  It looks to me like it was.  

Throughout April, SSI kept a "hustle board" -- one that counted the pitches the M's saw.  As the "hustle board" went staggeringly the M's way, their offense hit more amazing depths.

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Q.  Can you prove statistically their offense was, or was not, too patient?

A.  Of course you can't.

It can't be proven statistically either way.  For example, what are the "3rd-order" batting results for April, for May ... or in the 26 games since Detroit, as Geoff Baker cut the splits?

Baseball Prospectus uses "third-order" run differential and W/L record to normalize for strength of opposition.  Has anybody in this debate done that?  Of course not.

If you took the 2010 ERA's of the enemy pitchers the last 26 games, would that capture it?  Of course not.  If you took their 2011 xFIP's, would that capture how well each pitcher was throwing that day?  Of course not.

Has anybody normalized for Carlos Peguero's learning curve?  In place of Milton Bradley's flailing away? ... there are 100 real-life variables here you're not going to capture.

It's not an issue of "sample size" (sic).  It's that you aren't even beginning to capture the variables, if you think you can measure the quality of the M's pre-Detroit offense vs. the quality of their offense after.

............

It's tempting to throw a "he's just wrong" criticism out there, without respect for the complexity of the problem.  When we do, it's a fatal flaw.

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Q.  What does Eric Wedge mean by a quality at-bat?

A.  As so often, the man who understands the subject perfectly --- > refuses to explain it to us:

"A good AB is going up there ready to hit,'' Wedge said. "When you get a pitch, you don't miss it. I've got nothing against it (taking a walk). But that's not the way you're going to win. That's going to be a part of it.''

"Most of them are just phrases,'' Wedge said. "People don't know what the hell they're talking about when they say those things. You know what I mean? If I say "put up a good at-bat' do you know what that means? Not 'you' just in general. If I say 'make a good out' you've got to know what that means. Or 'make a tough out' you've got to know what that means.

"It's a fine line and that's why it's so hard to hit,'' Wedge said. "You can't look for the perfect pitch because you're probably not going to get it. If you do get it, you'd better not miss it. But you've got to be up there ready to hit. If they make a mistake, don't miss it. You take what they give you. But you have to be ready to hit. It's too fast, it's too quick, to think and react. You have to be up there ready to go.''

It's impossible to learn much from that, other than that Wedge means what he says.

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Q.  Can SSI explain "a professional at-bat" to us?

A.  Glad to.  You always seem to ask the questions I'm ready for.

Dr. D has never hit in a pro game, but he has listened to people who have, and Dr. D has done analogous things in other sports, such as sparring in aikido.

A "professional at-bat" brings an awareness of what that day's pitcher is likely to do.  It prepares to exploit those particular pitches that a batter is likely to receive that day.

..........

Dave Valle was reciting a conversation with Ted Williams... something like "Okay, Joe Shalbotnik will throw me about 15 pitches tonight.  He's throw about 4 fastballs, 5 curves, 3 sliders and 3 changeups."

"The sliders and changeups he can't throw for strikes.  The fastballs, he's pretty good with those.  But his curve is lousy, and he hangs two or three a game."

"Why WOULDN'T I go up there looking curve tonight?"

That kind of thing.

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Q.  So professional defense -- as hitting is defense -- involves an understanding of what that day's offense (pitching) is going to do?

A.  Right.  And in particular, what mistakes are reasonably going to be made by that offense.

A "professional at-bat" is about organizing your thinking.  As opposed to "see ball hit ball" reaction.

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In aikido randori, let's say Brown Belt Joe has real quick hands and doesn't commit much when he boxes.  He flicks punches out there and retreats.  Am I going to be able to execute a Steven Seagal spin-throw?  Not realistically.

But Brown Belt Joe may have a slow front kick!  (I know a guy just like this).  

So my thinking is organized, and I have a plan:  Just bat away the punches, wait for a front kick, and trap it.  Fight over.

This works against Brown Belt Joe, and against him only.

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If Teddy Ballgame got his hanging curve ball, he wasn't going to leave it on the warning track!

Michael Saunders might go up there in a state of confusion -- get a hanging curve -- and his eyes get big just a little too late, you know?  And, deciding on it just a little late, he leaves it on the warning track.

Teddy -- or ARod, or Texeira -- get the pitch they want, they are loading up as the pitcher releasesthe ball.  And there's your difference.  Two HR's, vs two pitches caught on the warning track.

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In order to trap a kick from Brown Belt Joe, I've got to have visualized that kick before the fight starts, and my own counter to it, all in real time.  You feel me?

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Q.  Are the Mariners in fact putting more aggressive, professional AB's out there?

A.  I couldn't guarantee you.  Am not sure.  I know that Peguero, Ryan, and Olivo are going up there ready to do something with their pitches.

Needless to say, some batters -- Smoak, Edgar, Ackley -- go up ready to exploit their pitches, but walk a lot anyway.  There are reasons for that too.

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Q.  So it's a question of reducing options, right...

A.  Smoak, Edgar, and Ackley won't swing at balls, so that's one thing.  But also, a pro at-bat reduces the options the pitcher has.  Teddy's example, he'd reduced the pitcher's options to a curve up and a fastball in a certain location.

Our aiki example, we'd reduced the options to the front kick, while we sort of fight off the other options.  But you better be sure to trap that kick when he throws it!  He might knock you out if you let things drag on...

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A guy like Michael Saunders, he is going up there probably battling against all 5 pitches.  It's confusing and it can't be done.

This is what Wedge is talking about:  simplify, cut down the options, and that once or twice a game when you get your shot MAKE SURE YOU SQUARE IT UP.  The fight is too dangerous not to end it when you get your chance.

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Q.  Were the Mariners not ready to do something with their pitches, before Detroit?

A.  I'm not sure.  I hadn't noticed it at the time.

I would suggest that Eric Wedge is a legit authority on this, and that we should take his word for it?

.........

You know, Jered Weaver is never going to give you a high fastball, out-and-over.  What is he going to give you?  If I'm Michael Saunders, I ask Eric Wedge's opinion on that.  (OK, maybe Chambliss'.)

Why wouldn't I?  And it reinforces that I'm on the same sheet of music with him.

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Q.  Anything else?

A.  Remember that when you change, and improve, your approach, sometimes your results go backward for a while.

If a PGA pro fixes your swing, you will probably shoot higher the next few rounds.  Right?

Whether the M's offense has been better since May 1, or since Detroit, or whatever -- they've got to learn to hit.  Even if the "pro AB" approach had not been productive in the first month, it is still the right way to play baseball.  You've got to beat your opponent, not hope he loses.

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They have been 16-10 since Detroit, and if not for League, they'd a been 20-6.  I'm enjoying the wins, and enjoying the hard RBI's.

They are playing better.  They need to keep playing better.

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My $0.02,

Jeff

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Comments

1
paracorto's picture

Really. In particular I like Wedge words:
"A good AB is going up there ready to hit,'' Wedge said. "When you get a pitch, you don't miss it. I've got nothing against it (taking a walk). But that's not the way you're going to win. That's going to be a part of it.''
...and again...
"It's too fast, it's too quick, to think and react. You have to be up there ready to go.''
It's a pleasure finally to read something which has so little to share with sabermetric and all that stuff on paper.
Greetings !

2
jwhit's picture

I still think Saunders can do it, but "his pitch" certainly is part of his problem.  with all the tinkering and thinking and mechanics, i don't think he has "his pitch" anymore. 
Perhaps he never really did.  He always struck me as a player who maybe knew what he couldn't hit and in the minor leagues the pitchers were not accurate enough to pitch to this location (corner away).  in the majors this has been exploited quickly and visciously. 
I hope when he gets sent down they tell him that he is going to get 400 abs to figure out what he should be looking for.  Maybe, for the first time, he can begin to dictate the terms of his at bats and learn how to actually do damage in the batter's box instead of just reacting to what the pitcher does.  He has the strength, size, speed and athletic ability to turn into a cost controlled .260/.340 hitter...i think.  which would really help out next year.

4

The phrase "holes in the swing" gets tossed around a lot... but with Saunders' "take it down the RF line" game, he really does have problems getting to:
The pitch on the black
The pitch on his hands
The pitch at his knees
Honestly - it's not just a cliche - Saunders right now has coverage of an area about the size of a volleyball, and if he's only set up to exploit that, it's no wonder he never sees it...

5

I remember reading, 3+ decades ago, something by Hank Aaron.  He said that all good hitters were "guess hitters."  I suspect he meant, like Ted Williams that he went looking (guessing) for a particular pitch and unloaded when he got it.
I also remember reading about Richie/Dick Allen.  He would tell teammates that he would purposely K by purposely waving at a third strike pitch, say a slider, late in a game already decided.  He did so because he knew he would then see that same pitch called the next time around.....and he would be sitting on it. 
Doc, you remember Dick Allen.  Many of our younger guys may not.  What a hitter he was.  Between '64 and '74, he was never below 145 OPS+, led the league in OPS 4 time, slg% 3 times, OBP twice and homers twice.  In '72 he had one of the all-time great years. That year, with the White Sox, he led the league with 37 homers, 113 RBI's, 99 walks, a .420 OBP, slugged .603, OPS 1.023, and OPS+'ed 199!  All figures led the league.  Oh...he hit .308, too.  He was a man.  Over that decade, he was probably one of the top five hitters (and that may be conservative) in the game.  Aaron was better.....then you have Bench, Killebrew, Howard, Wynn...maybe Yaz and Morgan. (have I mssed anybody who produced for that decade?)  Allen was in that class....maybe near the head of it.  Anyway....he claimed he would whiff at an offering on purpose....just so he could sit on it in a later AB.  Now THAT'S a hitter!
Saunders is completely lost at the plate.  I've come to the conclusion that with his new set-up he does not see the ball as well as he did.  I don't know if his head/eye position has changed...but I would bet that a subtle tweak has mucked him up and he has a hard time picking up the ball.  His new swing also has no leverage. Last year I thought he had 20 homer power, maybe 25, if he learned to sit dead red and wait for his pitch.  That launching ability is completely gone.  It looks like the M's tried to make him a more up-the-middle hitter.  Hey, some guys (See Ted Williams) are just natural pull hitters.  Sometimes you have to let them be.
Plenty of PGA Tour guys have lost their game when they tried to make a swing change.....Saunders is just like that.  As a .240-.300 guy with 25 taters, he is more valuable than Guti.  He ain't that player anymore....nor will he be. 
Remember the immortal line from "Slap Shot" (still the funniest sports movie ever made), "Dave's a mess."
Well....Mike's a mess.
Dick Allen wasn't though.
moe

6
zumbro's picture

Yes, he is a mess and he shouldn't be up here making that mess. Saunders is a victim of our formerly fruitless farm and is paying the price of being the best of a questionable lot. 
In a couple of weeks, when Franklinstein is hopefully healthy, Mike needs to return to Tacoma and be allowed the luxury of a normal learning curve. If he hadn't been called up 2 years ago, he might actually have been ready by now. 
It's a shame, but those days are hopefuly behind us. And, also hopefully El Condor will be given the opportunity to become a real contributor. Some day. Not today.

7

Though he was declining just as I started watching baseball...
Unique player, unique gifts, and one time Bill James listed the four biggest horse's patooties ever to play baseball, which included Hal Chase, Rogers Hornsby, Dick Allen and some other guy...
Imagine Allen slugging .632 in the 1966 game... Ron Fairly used to bat cleanup for the Dodgers, slugging .320-.380...
Had Allen been a Yankee and a nice guy, his status in the game would have equalled DiMaggio's...
.

8

They felt they had to have that loping CF at any cost... still need 'im...
The moment, the instant, they've got D covered in center, we're laying 10:1 they'll follow your prescription instanter...

9
muddyfrogwater's picture

M's were lucky to walk away with the win tonight. Pineda seemed to be living on the outer half of the plate Vs. righties and wasn't locating his fast ball very well. But you take what they give you. And woo hoo we're .500.
Concerning the Wedge "quote" describing a goog AB? Hmmm... Well how about the Robert McCloskey quote
“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”
 
One of my favorites.

11
paracorto's picture

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Pitcher’s arm extension shortens distance from home plate down to 65 feet approx. Consequently a 85 MPH pitch, since it travels at 38 m/s, will reach the hypothetical point of contact in 0,43 sec. approx. On the contrary a 95 MPH fastball, travelling at 42 m/s speed, will arrive in 0,39 sec
Having said that let’s stop a moment to realize what happens to the hitter in the box. Average swing time has been calculated in 0,16 sec. approx. plus 0,25 sec. is time required for a visual reaction (that’s more than time required for reacting to a sonorous stimulus like the 100m dash start gun) Now if we sum up those two times [0,16 + 0,25 = 0.41 sec] we should conclude that it’s impossible for a human being able to hit a 95 MPH fastball if he needs a clear vision of the pitch flight path in order to decide to start or less a swing.
Then how can happen that it’s possible instead to hit pitches even faster that 95 MPH ? Hitter must start attacking a pitch before the ball is released, then using his own “picture” of the ball in flight in case to decide to stop his swing. Better is that hitter and closer will be distance of the ball from contact point when he decides to stop swinging, since a pitch usually reveals its real flight path only late.
In other words a good hitter first of all is defined when he attacks every pitch and then by how and when he stops swing.

12

Other equally feared hitters of the period:
Frank Robinson
Willie McCovey
Willie Stargell
Carl Yastrzemski (at least between '65 and '70), as you mentioned.
 
 

13

Richie (the common use of "Dick" as his first name began in the '70s IIRC) Allen was terror-inducing. Part of that was his bat, but part of it was his personality as well. Both were fierce. You could strike him out, but if you didn't it was BIG trouble. Take Manny Ramirez in his prime, make him a spit-in-your-face-scowler instead of a screw-around, lessen the plate and swing discipline and replace it with the aforementioned fierceness, you've got Richie Allen.

14

To expand on a point hinted at, (but not attacked directly), you capture wonderfully the concept of how a hitter can 'simplify' his game ... and you do so by noting the PITCHER weaknesses, (and knowing your aikido opponent).
The thing that gets missed in the example is that every hitter has *HIS* strengths, weaknesses and hitter template ... which the pitchers will be attempting to exploit.
One can only 'attack the curve' (or slider ... or fastball) ... if one can identify the pitch and correctly assess its final position at the plate in time to act.  Each player's ability to simplify is not only a function of what the opponent brings --- but the limitations of the hitters ability, also.
The #1 plus I see for Seattle this season is not the rotation ... or the bullpen ... but for the first time in ... well, forever it seems ... hitters have changed for the better *DURING* the season.
Olivo, Ryan, Cust (and even Smoak, if you go back to 2010), have all spent a month in hitting hell, but have emerged from it (it seems), as better hitters than before.
Prior to this season, the normal path of hitters was to struggle, and then whatever coaching and tweaking was done ... the results seem to always get universally worse.  Didn't seem to matter if it was a veteran or a rookie ... struggles and slumps turned into career ending implosions.
It has long been my belief that the root cause for this was an inability to examine the INDIVIDUAL traits of each hitter and find an adaptation which fit THEM.  Without any direct knowledge of what remedies the coaches were attempting - I can only speculate on the advice - but the results are not in dispute.
I've often heard complaints that the 'stock' answer to pull hitter problems was to 'go the other way'.  Good coaching figures out how to best leverage the skills available.  But, no amount of coaching can create a non-existent skill.  I'm certain multiple coaches have told Beltre "don't swing at the outside slider".  The thing is --- it's pretty obvious that he cannot recognize the outside slider until it is too late to stop his swing.  Unless you can teach him how to read 'slider', he'll always be vulnerable to that pitch - and he'll do his damage on everything else.
The "best" Jack Wilson can hit will never be the same as the "best" that Justin Smoak can hit.  Completely different skill sets demand completely different optimal hitter templates.  And that is the rub.  Most hitting coaches only understand the way "they" hit very well.  It takes an exceptional organization to be able to optimize multiple hitter 'types'.  And that is why many organizations, (like the Ms under Bavasi), fall in love with one specific template and tend to pile up multiple hitters of that one template ... because it's easier to 'teach' a class full of one type of student.
I'm REALLY excited because Olivo, Ryan and Cust are three VERY different hitters.  They were all struggling ... yet now, they are all hitting very well.  That means (at the minimum), the club is no longer do damage to every struggling hitter.  That not only bodes well for the team, but also for the futures of guys like Peguero and Ackley and Mike Wilson and maybe even Carp. 
Of course, good coaching doesn't mean 100% success.  Figgins and Saunders are examples of flailing hitters.  Saunders, as a prospect, is well known to be retooling his swing -- with miserable results.  Figgins, as a veteran, should be mostly able to tweak his own swing.  But, obviously, that hasn't worked out well thus far. 
In the end there is much hope for the future ... because for the first time in almost a decade, there is a sense that Seattle Mariner hitters are demonstrating the ability to improve.

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