Konspiracy Korner: Brexit

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Please click to the next article if politics tend to annoy you.  :- )   - Dr. D

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Seems to me that the European Union is something we ought to be able to discuss in a dispassionate, stimulating and enjoyable way.  (You've said you have strong feelings about it, Matty; please be careful to be respectful of globalists on SSI.)

There are very strong arguments in favor of globalism.  But there are also strong arguments in favor of the idea that the world should have nations, should have diverse homes for diverse populations, the same way that you and I live in different houses and neighborhoods on a cellular level.  Personally I haven't sorted these arguments out well enough to take a firm position.  

I lean towards Nationalism, but that's part of the reason we're posting this.  Perhaps there is logic and information that, um, trumps my own first impressions.

James today said,

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All the xenophobia in the news (Trump, Brexit) made we wonder about the Man on the Train & whether the locals at the scene of the crimes were more likely to blame a stranger or to blame someone local, and why.  As you've often written, the mind always wants an explanation or narrative, and I can see competing narratives - "Fred Jones never like the victim - must have been him." vs. "Nobody from our town could have done this - only a stranger."  Wondering how strong you think the pull of each of those narratives was at the time.  If the local explanation was stronger maybe it was because violence & death was more a part of life then, so it was easier to imagine someone local having committed the crime?  Although, it seems it would have been tempting for locals to blame outsiders (as in politics now).  Did the mobility and anonymity of the trains lead to an increased fear of strangers at all, or was that not something people thought about at the time? Sorry for unfocused question!
Asked by: marbus1

Answered: 6/27/2016
 Well, what you SHOULD be sorry for is blaming the Brexit vote on xenophobia.   That's not true, and, worse than simply not true, it is ignorant and elitist.   It is explaining other people's views in terms of your own biases, rather than making a real effort to understand how other people see the issue.   I would have voted to leave the European union, and I am certainly not afraid of whatever outsiders may be there; heck, they're all foreigners to me.  I hate Trump as much as you do, so I'll let that one slide. . . .
 
The greater issue is actually fairly central to the book, and there is a clear answer to it.   People much, much, much prefer to believe that a crime was committed by a local person, rather than that they have been victimized by a random, unknown stranger.   This actually comes up again and again in the book.   In the case of a murder in Houston Heights, Texas (now a part of Houston, but at that time a separate development separated from Houston by a mile or so of farmland). . .in that case the sheriff announced within days of the crime that the only realistic conclusion was that the crime had been committed by "a maniac who had satisfied his blood lust and then departed via the railroad track", apologies for putting quotation marks around what may be an inexact quotation; it's from memory.    Anyway, his initial surmise was precisely true:  the crime HAD been committed by a maniac who left town before dawn, three days before the murders were discovered.   The Man from the Train has certain "signature" behaviors, and the crime scene has so many of those signatures that there is no doubt that it is him.  
 
Yet having "seen" this truth, the sheriff and the prosecutors then spent three years trying to frame and prosecute a young man who could not possibly be more obviously innocent, and two or three equally innocent co-conspirators.   This actually happens repeatedly in the book, although not always so starkly:  that the sheriff immediately understands what has happened, but then goes into denial about it, and tries to prosecute a local person for a crime which he has already stated publicly was probably committed by a stranger just passing through.   Their job is to solve the crime.   It is so difficult for them to ACCEPT that they can't solve the crime that they will latch on to obviously baseless allegations, rather than coming to terms with the fact that they are just not going to solve it. 
 
Villisca, Iowa, is the most famous example of this; the crime was fairly obviously committed by an outsider just passing through, but the town engaged in an absolutely amazing five-year battle over the effort to pin the crime on a local businessman.   The battle ripped the town apart, to a remarkable extent; I spent about three chapters in the book on that story, which I thought had never been told the way it deserved to be told. 
 
But my book has a biased view of these cases, of course, because I am writing about murders which actually WERE committed by an outsider; thus, if the local prosecutors get hung up on the effort to prosecute a local, I view that as prejudice.    But in another Iowa case. . . .I think I wrote about this one here, years ago. . . a family named "Hardy" was murdered on a farm near Marshalltown.    That murder probably was NOT committed by The Man from Train.   I didn't have a full understanding of that when I wrote the article here, but eventually, years after writing that article, I concluded that that crime most probably was NOT committed by "my" murderer, although I am not certain that it wasn't. 
 
But the local sheriff there convinced himself that the surviving member of the family, a young man who was going to be married a few days later, had committed the crime.   It is TOTALLY irrational; there isn't ANY reason to believe that he committed the crime.   But people still write about that crime today, in the 21st century, and people STILL will try to blame the crime on this obviously innocent young man, rather than accept that the family was murdered by some outsider.    It comes up in almost every case in the book; the local people just will not accept that the crime was committed by a person passing through town, even when that is the only rational conclusion.  

/James

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Dr. D Sez

One thing that occurs to me in favor of Nationalism is the idea that if you have ten different strong nations in the world, then when any one Hitler-style dictator arises, the other nine can oppose him.  I don't know what the term for it is, but this "local autonomy" is a key theme in my own Christian "denomination."  We don't have a pyramid authority structure with a tower in Chicago or New York; each local group makes its own decisions, and then if one city goes sour, the others are unaffected.  There is a resilience gained by this.  Which isn't to say it's the end of the discussion.

Another paradigm I favor is the benefit of having church leaders who sit in the same pews as I do, who know me and understand me.  James brought this up in his answer to flyingfish:

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Yes, bureaucrats who are closer to you and more accessible to you are much preferable to bureaucrats who are further away and harder to talk to--but you might note that this decision was not made by bureaucrats, but by the people.  /James

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I don't know that human rights causes are weakened by Nationalism.  It goes to the whole problem of whether a Central Government should primarily take care of the weak, or whether we as people should evolve to care about the weak on an individual level.  It's another very complex problem within the very complex problem.

Which isn't to say the U.S. Congress shouldn't vote big dollars to human rights issues, also.  It should, and it does.

Perhaps some Trump voters are cold and uncaring about Syrian refugees.  Personally, I don't know anybody who fits in this category.  Do you?  What is your real-life experience with this?  The people I know who vote Trump, are simply people who admire the Founding Fathers, admire traditional American values, who resist the idea of America disappearing into a global assimiliation that is unlikely to have values consistent with George Washington's.

That might be a mistaken view of the world, but at least we can argue against the other side's position after we gain a clear understanding of their position.

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In the mainstream media, 90% of the time I see the anti-Brexit arguments made on an economic basis (if not even in "xenophobic" assumptions as the one above).  That's fine, but the vote in Britain seems to have been affected much more by the Common Man's concern for maintaining England's identity as a culture.

They say there are large sections of London where you can no longer even hear English spoken.  That's fine, if that's what society agrees on, but "respecting the vote" should also respect that this situation should be subject to the will of the people.

It seems that most English people assumed that the immigrants would mostly assimilate, and when they didn't, resistance to the EU gathered momentum.

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Regarding James' second paragraph:  after the Orlando shooting, some Americans wished to view the problem as an interior issue with American gun control, while others wished to see it as an external problem with radical Islamic terrorism.  As James points out, it can be much less scary to view a problem as originating at home.

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The best arguments in favor of Globalism, as I see them, are economic.  These arguments are often quite convincing in a vacuum.  Frictionless commerce?  Hey, I'm an eBay PowerSeller.  Nobody gets the economic power of frictionless commerce better than an eBayer gets it.

But economic arguments also hit me as a bit of a misdirection.  Few Americans vote this issue based on the economics of it; they're thinking about the issue of cultural identity.  So why not be open and direct about this aspect of the issue?

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Culturally and socially ... as an outsider, I understand President Obama to have a grand vision of a world that is not dissimilar to Star Trek Next Generation, where humanistic education and technology provide a type of eutopia with absolutely no one left behind.  And with everyone 'educated' into common humanistic values.  A segment of Globalists, such as most the New York Times' writers, it seems, envision an eventual state in which religion itself has been eradicated through advancement of knowledge.  

That's admirable in many ways, if it's an accurate understanding of the position, but I have my own questions whether it's feasible.  Lot of bad guys exist, and seems to me they always will.  And eventual eradication of religion depends on a rather large assumption about the cosmos.  :- )

But, like we said, there are more moderate globalists who have little intent of eradicating religion, free speech, or diversity of thought; they're thinking in terms of frictionless commerce and in terms of unity through commonality.

If a New World Order had a constitution with a First Amendment, that said No, No, No, there will be absolute freedom of religion and speech, then in my mind it would be a completely open question as to whether Globalism or Nationalism is the future of the world.  That ain't the way it turned out in China, but maybe it would turn out that way in the NWO.

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Help me out here,

Jeff

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Comments

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1) Not terribly thrilled with being admonished in your articles every time you say something you think I might respond to, though I admit I have played a role in my status as a pariah around here.

2) I'm a Roman Catholic and strongly believe that subsidiarity cannot make a better world on its own - that solidarity is also needed.  That is to say...when you talk about your church being protected from going wildly awry in total because it is cellular and autonomous, what I heard in my head is: "Then how can it be a cohesive faith that is unifying us under Christ?  How cna we know that it is consistently teaching the same core values?"  Catholics believe that a top-down structure is necessary but that the leity must be engaged in the faith enough to know when something has gone wrong at the top and apply the full body of Church scholarship to their discernment over whether what the Pope said today makes sense (so long as he is not speaking infallibly on a matter of faith and morals, which the Popes very...very rarely ever do). The same standard applies, to a certain extent, to international politics.  I'm a conservative who believes in the necessity of free trade over protectionism.  To get free trade, you have to have massive international cooperation and the nations have to have some shared say in international monetary policy.

3) Which is a longhand way of saying that I believe globalizing some values and human institutions is a good thing.  I also think that space exploration should be a global effort (run by private sector companies, yes, but representing the whole world as much as possible).  I am also a scientist and recognize the value of international scientific cooperation - our computer models would be useless in meteorology if the nations of the world didn't share their atmospheric and surface observation data so that we could get a proper set of initial conditions each time we make a forecast.  Whatever your views on climate change, we can't do the research necessary to come to the right conclusion with international cooperation and resource sharing.

4) Where I place the limit on globalism is at the point where any concensus is possible without coersion - globalist associations must be voluntary and revokable at any time (within reason and with enough lead time to allow nations to reconfigure their business affairs) in order to be free and to work properly (and to avoid corruption such as we are constantly seeing within the United Nations).

That said, re: Brexit - I've been watching this issue for some time now.  I think the EU, the way it was founded in the 1950s and extended in the 1970s made a lot of good sense.  It was a loose federation of disparate states coming to common terms regarding free trade, freedom of movement, and common negotiated causes for Continental Europe.  Where I think the EU has gone wrong of late, however, is in the extension of that loose Federation into a much more binding affiliation with a common charter that tries to rule over many different nationalities and many different cultures with one set of one-size-fits-all standards.  When your unelected central planners in Brussels are busy regulating tea kettle power consumption for the entire continent and ordering countries that do smart economic planning to bail out countries that do incredibly stupid economic planning on a continual basis...countries that don't even share common values, no less...you're going to get a nationalist pushback and it's going to get ugly.

I think Brexit is the UK frog hopping out of the pot just before the stove gets hot enough to kill it, to use a common analogy.  The EU has become increasingly aggressive in its attempts to get all of the nations of Europe to agree to one heavy-handed set of binding rules that don't make equal sense for all regions and the citizens of the UK (other than Scotland and London) have had enough of that and want to chart their own course.

TL;DR version: I am not anti-globlaist...I'm anti-multiculturalism (in the sense that I believe there should be space in this big ol' world of ours for different cultures...people should be allowed to live the way that they prefer, so long as they are not violating the human rights of other people.  Societies that do not share common values soon disintegrate.  It's happening here in the US, IMHO.  And it's happening in the EU as well.

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Anti-multiculturalism vs. anti-globalism is an important distinction.  One I touched on in my last couple of paragraphs.  Agree too that if Nationalists are right (whether that includes you or not) then the UK might well be seen as the frog hopping out of the pot.  It's not impossible that history 300 years from now will see it exactly that way.  With the post-mortem we tried it, it was well-intentioned, but for practical reasons it just didn't work.

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As to the issue of autonomy of local Christian congregations, I won't get into that much, except to ask Where is the superstructure between Christ and His churches in Rev. 2-3?  ;- ) and give you the last word.

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Agreed:  globalization of SOME aspects of human culture is inevitable.  So inevitable that we get the impression President Obama sees these aspects as an imperative towards globalizing all the other aspects.

Which echoes the inference --- > if the U.S. government must oversee the building of interstate highways (which it must), why wouldn't it oversee the building of a health care system?  And X and Y and Z?

:: daps ::

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Out of respect for you and the immense quality of your ideas:

Please keep in mind that Konspiracy Korners used to be one of the most popular features of SSI.  Our ability to talk nicely about controversial issues was one of the greatest things about SSI.

The main reason I hesitate to do KK's any more is concern that *you* will get angry, or too pointed in contradicting others, and the thread will go sideways.  The admins share this view.

It's your job to get along with the site, more than the other way around, as you might recall from the "ghost" era.  When you're in your friendly mode, you're unbeatable.  Please be aware of the nature of the relationship.

Let's all be NICE about the ideas others express.  As you were above.

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I'm pretty much in with Matt on this one.  I would have voted (were I a Brit) for a Brexit in about 1.5 seconds.

To me the central issue here was not one of unity but one of sovereignty.  The English folk (who I have a great affinity for) had simply lost much of their own ability to influence British policy.  Their "popular sovereignty" had been surrendered to layer upon layer of unelected apparatchiks.

The original idea of the European Union was one of borderless trade.  That morphed into one of currency unity, which was bound to mean that strong European economies were going to pack the Greeks, etc.  But that united currency was critical if you were going to rival the US AND have (essentially) borderless travel and trade.

Good enough.

But somehow that ended up into borderless immigration. Once you were in Hungary you were in Norway or the Netherlands......or Manchester. And like it or not, a"typical" Belgian moving to Germany (or the UK) is (likely) not the same thing as a your "typical" Syrian doing the same, at least in fairly unlimited numbers.

Nations are nations and the electorate the electorate only if they have some control over their own affairs.  Such was the thing that 52% of Brits saw was missing.

As to Matt's religion points:  Religion is built, of course, on some structure of orthodoxy.  "If it feels good, do it," is a great 1970's mantra but a lousy platform to build a religion on.

I concur.

But they certainly aren't all xenophobes and yahoos.  I am certainly not!  Well, I'm not a xenophobe anyway.....the yahoo thig is debatable.  

I found President Obama's "end of the que" efforts pretty silly and definately wrong.  We're tied pretty closely to the Brits, like it or not.  I like it, by the way.

And the "Chicken Little" warnings of PM Cameron and others a bit too juvenile for my tastes.

As to Matt's religion discussion:REligion has to be built on some sense of orthodoxy.  Even the Buddha's "Middle Path" is an orthodoxy. So there is always some top down structure.  Man, even the Calvinists and their Presbyters had some uniform orthodox beliefs.  Plenty of them, as it turns out.  They believed in some local control over religions affairs...but not over common orthodoxy.

"Globalization" of trade is not the same as "glbalization" of values.  "Globalization" of some (greater...and mostly from on high) values is certainly a must.  

But (lack of) immigration control, VATs, penal climate directives, etc. are not of that sort.

The Brits voted against a picayune-intrusive-autocratic-technocratic nanny Uber-State over which they had no control.  Good for them

The markets will recover.

Moe

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Clearly isn't in the spirit of the global Zen we were hoping for.

Interesting that the comments section is much more Nationalist than I'd have assumed it was.  Sometimes it's possible to overplay a hand, isn't it?  :- )

Good link amigo.

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tjm's picture

here: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/why-brexit-happ...

Cowen is a conservative (maybe libertarian?) economist who opposed Brexit. He nonetheless makes the interesting point, quoting Francis Fukyama, that Engand, Denmark and Japan were the only mature, developed nations prior to the industrial revolution and one trait they all shared was very low immigration. This contributes to a fixed sense of what the place is and makes change that much harder to accomodate. I know Japan much better than England and this is overwhelingly the situation there still.

That said, the principal driver, sometimes only, of globalization is economic. And there is very little argument that this has not increased prosperity for the majority of people affecetd by it. Not to deny the truly devestating effect globalization can have on individuals or individual industries; the improvements from globablization are broad and sometimes hard to appreciate; the injuries are sharp, narrow and impossible to miss. There's a secondary, nontrivial geopolitical effect of increased global trade - trading partners in the modern world find is very hard to go to war with one another.

What the EU discovered was that it is very hard to form an economic union without agreement on non-economic policies. So you get the disputes on immigration, etc., which really can't be divorced from economic policy if the policy is going to be meaningful. What to do? I think the world is going to compell almost all nations into trade zones, agreements, etc., and they are always messy, but to isolate yourself is a mistake. It's throwing out the baby with the bath water.

And what was the point about China supposed to mean? And Obama's plan for one world? Where does that come from? And how many NYT writers have you talked to, Jeff. I know a couple dozen and I've never heard any of them say anything close to what you suppose of them. I thought we told you to quit practicing ESP - it ruins the fantasy leagues.

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No ESP involved.  :- ) I'm reacting to the general culture of charging 'xenophobia' against nationalists, which is pervasive on CNN, MSNBC, etc.  Are you saying that the MSM has been pretty good about resisting the xenophobia angle?  If so, noted.

If your experience is that NYT writers SHOULD AND DO avoid this characterization, thank you for saying.

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My point about China -- and here I do know several first-generation Chinese immigrants -- is that their government is politically correct (pro-abortion, anti-gun obviously, environmental, correct speech) and very committed to a mandated list of public talking points that they see as best for society - especially w/r/t to the eradication of religion.  I would think anybody would share a concern that a powerful central government COULD THEORETICALLY wind up with this problem. 

Not saying it applies in every individual point of the analogy.  But China's view is also towards educating its society into a "correct" set of values with an agenda of eradicating dissension.

To the extent you see American multiculturalism as differing from this, I appreciate that.  For the sake of simplicity -- changing from a question about Obama to a question about your own views:  in an ideal society, would you personally use the K-12 system to influence children away from incorrect ideas on sexuality, abortion, gun ownership, Patriotism as a positive value, etc?

Which values would you teach in K-12 and which values would you studiously avoid touching upon?  The Chinese put nothing in the latter category.

Respectfully,

Jeff

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tjm's picture

No, I'm not suggesting the media has been good at resisting the xenophobia angle. It has not. That said, China is at the far, far end of the spectrum. It is a military dictatorship. Full stop. Any comparisons between that and the US (or the EU) seems to be taking the conversation in a not entirely useful direction. (For what it's worth,* I live in a house with three Chinese immigrants.(*Not much!)). It's like saying, oh, if we deregulate banks we're going to end up at Animal Farm. Nobody wants to be Piggie! 

Every education system ever devised seeks to be normalizing. The American system of public education was founded explicitly to manufacture better citizens. To a certain extent, this goal has been lost and to our detriment. As a result our citizenry is ill-equiped. We can't even get half the people to vote so I'd say something has gone sideways somewhere. But it's not about advocating specific positions on specific issues but about teaching how to consume information and make helpful choices in a complicated world.   

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I think the perfect case in point is the Pledge of Allegiance.

It was instituted in 1892 as a way to 'normalize' the immigrants coming from Europe.  

But since the original version referred only to 'the flag' without further description, it occurred to people that the words 'of the United States' needed to be added to make sure people weren't saluting some foreign version.

Also, originally 'pledgers' were required when saying 'the flag' to raise their arms in salute, with palms upturned.  

But with the asscendency of Hitler in Europe, this started to look problematic, so it was decreed that hands should remain over hearts.

Then when Communism became the great threat, Congress inserted the words 'under God' in 1954.

And of course, there have been court battles to remove this ever since.

So my conclusion is that it's hard to determine 'normalizing' in any consistent fashion when the definition of 'normal' continues to change.

And the thing that separates us from China most of all is that we, as a country, can continue to argue about all this.

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Though I would kick the can back, to say --- > though yes, nuance is important, the concept of "open-mindedness" should not cause us to lose our way so far as to say there aren't Core Values that America should stand for.

e.g. the U.S. Army has committed to Loyalty, Respect, Integrity, Selfless Service, Duty, Honor, and Courage as "good" and their opposites as "bad."  It is very specific as to what it means by these, and (in the main) creates Soldiers who exemplify these these, as opposed to kids nowadays who often exemplify Disdain, Grievance, Expediency and so forth.

I'd get an argument from a lot of twenty-somethings I know that such attributes are "good" even in the abstract.  50 years ago, we wouldn't be debating whether it was a good thing to tell the Truth, whether the Founding Fathers (much less Jesus or Moses or the Dalai Lama) were basically positive role models, and so forth.  

The 2016 A.D. culture war in the U.S. is fighting on some awfully thin ice, in my view.

Good stuff amigo.

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I agree with 98% of that.  That's a big reason I like to exchange ideas in these topics, because often we find out that we have far more common ground than we realize.

You and I are from much earlier generations, Terry.  I can appreciate that you would take offense (even if you didn't) at the comparison of totalitarian regimes to the U.S. decisions in front of us.

However, I truly wonder about this younger generation.  Not sure at all how many liberal college sophomores in the year 2016 hold the first amendment as sacrosanct.  Jesse Watters did a humor piece at O.S.U. walking around with a petition to ban the first amendment, in the interests of sensitivity, and got over 50% support.

Not sure at all how much the 18-30 crowd would find the Chinese system unthinkable.

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Good thoughts on the K-12 system.  Will let you have the last word there.

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tjm's picture

Just a word of caution: We should be clear what we mean when we say Main Stream Media. The NYT, WSJ and Washington Post are hardly in the same business as MSNBC, CNN and Fox. I've been a huge critic of the media even while working within it for my whole career, but lumpng them all together does more to confuse than clarify. I really don't think the NYT (which I find disconcertingly cautious) is in the bread and circuses business.

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If I need a carburetor and I can ask any of 7 billion people who will sell me one for the least money, that's a great thing.

No doubt in my mind that economic globalization, just in terms of being able to interact with one another, is a great blessing.

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Seattle Outsider's picture

Not sure about the exact benefits/costs of globalization. It's already happened at high level business, trickling down into everyday business, largely driven by the United States policy makers. We've set the rules for globalization generally. Cat's out of the bag. Globalization will continue, whether the UK or the US or anyone else wants to or not. China's carving up Africa and Southeast Asia, and have been for awhile. Now they're moving into the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

The question we face isn't a choice between nationalism vs. globalism. Given that other world nations now have the ability to project power globally (namely China and Russia), the question is: Who do we want to lead the process of globalization?

I, for one, really hope that the US does, with EU and UK running 2nd fiddle. We should all fear a world where China makes the rules for global interaction. If we retreat from the position of international leader (which seems to be what nationalist effectively would get), that China takes up the pole position very shortly.

So, yes, globalization may cost us some jobs in the near term, may mean we need to let more people in, and may mean our American culture is going to evolve (which it always has - "American values" now are quite different from the Founding Fathers, et al) - but if we're not leading the global effort, China will. And that will cost America a lot more.

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That eBay is going to conduct business across national lines, that is a given.  The broader question is, eBay's headquarters will operate under whose laws centrally:  the U.S.', or that of a global government?

Can eBay drive a PowerSeller out of business unfairly, or if it can't ... when it becomes subject to monopoly and antitrust law, who will judge them?  The U.S. Congress or a global entity?

We will all CONDUCT ourselves in more and more global ways, in many arenas.  The OVERSIGHT is what is at issue.  To whom will U.S. business interests answer, to the U.S. or to a United Nations overseeing body?

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Seattl Outsider's picture

It will answer to the entity with the most power. As it always has. Better that The US is at the power center than any other nation. UN is an extension of US policy. You can see the effect in the litigation over the South China Sea between China and the Phillipines. Even if the ruling goes in favor of the Philipines, it will do nothing to change China's actions - they have more power in that case. 

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Seattle Outsider's picture

Further, multinational corporations will go wherever is most beneficial to them, where they have the most influence and power. We should be under no illusion that American multinationals won't jump ship to any other nation if it put them in a better position. As for business on an individual level - it's all trust related anyway outside of the US. Good luck to any individual litigating in a foreign court outside of direct US influence. Heck, even Apple and Nike can't win clearly absurd patent cases in China.

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I think that some of Brexit is the byproduct of the harshly changing parliamentary style of government.

In a parliament, there is no Constitution, Presidency or Court system that can temper a Congress.  When one party takes power, it rewrites half the statute book, and undoes much of what its rivals just did.  From what I understand, the British tax code has swung wildly from the 1970's onward depending on who is in power.

When there is this sort of continuous political upheaval, a Brexit probably does not strike Britons as that big of a deal.  They are used to running bums out of office and shaking things up when they are dissatisfied.  

As far as xenophobia goes, I think that Britain can have a legitimate concern over controlling and securing its borders from other countries.  Every other country besides the EU members does this.  The US only lets aliens with a clean criminal record, a good work record  remain in the United States (unless they play baseball or have valuable scientific knowledge).   The EU freedom of travel, as I understand it, allows a person to travel from country to country.  That means that there can be a depression in Greece, Latvia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Romania and the rest of Eastern Europe, and an entire population can move to the next country over.  Allowing a people the traditional control over their borders does not make them xenophobes.  

Also, footing the bill for Eastern Europe is probably not cheap either.  

Would like to hear from a UK person about this. 

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... in an ideal world, is one I see debated a lot.

Do I misunderstand Bernie Sanders when I interpret his position as towards completely open borders?  

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That's a good part of the reason I asked this question, knowing 70% of SSI readers vote left.  Leaving aside what candidates regard as expedient to DECLARE, what do they actually believe, in the absence of any resistance?

Is there 25% of the American populace that would like to see open borders across the world?  What borders and immigration policies would Bernie Sanders set, given a blank check?  Honestly don't know.

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Wow. Not exactly dipping a toe into the pool on this one, eh? Might as well jump right in, cannonball style. 

Here is what really bothers me with the "anti-immigrant" arguments that I see made: these same kinds of arguments were made against MY ancestors, the Irish and the Italians. Both groups of immigramts were met with the same kind of hostility that I see today. The Irish were lazy drunks that were coming to sponge off the "regular Americans" and were going to somehow pollute "American Culture". The Italians were shady criminals that clustered together in tight-knit communities that refused to speak English and assimilate into the "American Culture". There were entire sections of American cities where you couldn't hear anything but Italian spoken...for a generation. But their kids learned English and now, a few generations later, few of us know more than a few Italian phrases. 

Regardless, it was mostly nonsense and I suspect that it's mostly nonsense today. Each wave of immigrants came to this country to do the jobs that Protestant Americans just wouldn't do. In the case of my Irish and Italian ancestors, that was mining and smelting ore. For the Chinese that came to the West it was to build the railroads and do people's laundry. And now Latin Americans that work in the slaughterhouses and orchards and keep the lawns of wealthy Californians and Texans. They aren't taking anyone's job - they are doing the jobs that nobody else will do. The same dynamic seems to be in play in the UK, especially with respect to the Polish immigrants. Yeah, there are some criminals and addicts among them...just like there were criminals and drunks among the Italians and Irish. But they are the exception, not the rule. Just like it was with my ancestors. And probably yours. Anti-immigrant talk gets my red up, fast. 

I guess I'm not even sure what "American Culture" is. I was taught that this was the great melting pot - a grand tapestry of cultures, each with it's own bright thread woven into it. I know this isn't what Matt is saying but I do get the impression that when a lot of people rail against multiculturalism, what they are really railing against is every other thread in that tapestry BUT their caucasian, Judeo-Christian thread. I just can't get behind that. I don't see America as some kind of weird, white, pseudo-theocracy. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Native American, Hindu, Pastafarian - I honestly do not care. As long as you are peaceful and industrious and love your neighbor, have at it, man. The dude abides. Extoll whatever cultural values you want - just don't try and use the power of government to force ANYONE else to adopt those values, or live by them. So yeah, I'm secular. 

As far as the EU goes, I think they had the right idea - it's just been the execution that was horrible. As I understand it, the EU was originally designed to be a European free-trade zone. That, I like. What it turned into is a nightmare of bureaucracy. Free trade is easy - a free trade agreement could be two sentences. "You, in this country, if you want to import someting from that country, do it. You, in this country, if you want to export something to that country, do it." That's free trade. When you get 10,000+ pages of rules and regulations that businesses have to adhere to in order to import or export goods, that's no longer free trade. Much like our 'free trade agreements' in the US, the regulations are written to favor those organizations that can influence the government and disadvantage those organizations that cannot. I would have voted for Brexit if I lived in the UK, even knowing that doing so may well spell the end of the United Kingdom. 'Cause the barn door is open now and everything is on the table - Scottish independence will almost certainly get another vote. Irish unification will get a lot of attention (how do you secure THAT border, with Ireland remaining in the EU and Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK?). Heck, Welsh independence may re-emerge as an (unlikely) topic. But everyone deserves the right to vote for or against the people that make the rules - and that's simply not something the people of Europe have with the EU. 

The one potential downside I do see is the security agreements. I kind of hate our military involvement in Europe but as my Army Colonel cousin says, our involvement with NATO and maintaining our bases over there is cheaper by far than another land war in Europe. Hopefully they don't throw the baby (security) out with the bath water (trade bureaucracy). Hopefully we don't so the same with a Trump presidency. He's got some seriously frightening isolationist ideas with regards to our military. 

One thing is for sure - everyone in England should be thanking their lucky stars for Gordon Brown. If he hadn't fought to keep the British Pound and had given into pressure to adopt the Euro, this untangling would be darn near impossible. Can you imagine trying to create a major new national currency in this day and age? Shudder. 

23

What is the right NUMBER of immigrants in any given year?  2 million?  5 million?  Unlimited?

And what criteria should there be for entry, if any?  The U.S. currently allows 1-2 million immigrants per year through an existing democratic process.

We're all immigrants, obviously.  However, the vast majority of us entered the country in a legal, supervised way.  Do away with the supervision as a concept?

24

Them fer'ners is ruining everything.  We've heard it for generations.  And it's reprehensible.

That said, America for 200 years has been the least hospitable home for immigrants --- > except for every other country in the world.  Call me when Turkey appoints an Egyptian to be President.  :- )  Or when Japan puts a white guy in office.

Europe, the last few decades, became the first area I know of that was friendlier to immigration than the U.S. has been historically.  But most would concede they've had mixed results?

25

As far as legal immigration goes, do you know the 'legal and supervised' process my ancestors (and likely yours) went through? Get to Ellis Island pass a medical screening. That was it and that was the process for most of this country's history. Of course, for most of our history we were busy populating the frontier and that's no longer the case. Now we are busy populating the businesses that drive the economy. I don't think we can draw many parallels between then and now. My screening would be: pass a security screen (which should not take 18 months), pass a medical screen and have a job waiting for you. 

So yeah, I'm a capitalist and I'm going to lean on letting the job market play a huge role. I'm certainly not in favor of imigrants that come into the country and become wards of the state via the social safety net. I'm also not very politically correct, which will piss some people off. With Syria, for instance, I would take all of the Syrian doctors, engineers, scientists and entrepreneurs that can pass a serious security screen. Heck, we took all the Nazi doctors, engineers and scientists we could get our hands on won the 'space race' and arguably the cold war because of it. I don't want the no-skill refugees that can't contribute but if they can pass security and medical screens and have a job waiting, then bring 'em on. That's a somewhat heartless stance but practical. 

26

...two thumbs up on this.

If I had more thumbs, I'd give them to you, too.

27

Merriam Webster defines it this way:

loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially  :  a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

I don't know how old this definition is, but do we beieve this is what's at stake?  Not just protecting our interests...but 'promoting' them to the rest of the world?

When it gets to the definition of our 'culture', though, things get a little dicey, don't they?  What is our culture?  Isn't it endlessly fluid?  Ever-changing?  (I grew up not knowing that 'Mexican food' even existed.  Vive le difference!)

Certainly globalization is one of the things influencing this.  The extreme opposite of globalism would be absolute isolation--no trade, no immigration, hewing to one set of values, one religion. etc.  I think there are places on Earth that still come close to this...but would any American want to live there?  Our 'culture wars' are always accomodations to change.  Those who long for 'the good old days' are ones whose class, race, geography, value system, etc., benefitted from their recollection of what existed 'back then'.  Those 'good old days' certainly did not apply to everyone.

But to a more specific point on Brexit.  I saw someone I respect online today asking if anyone had seen links to the reasoning of those who voted 'leave'. I did not see any responses...so maybe there was no 'exit polling' to draw from?

At any rate, some motivations for the 'leave' vote would seem to include:

  • immigration/refugee stress
  • loss of jobs to trade
  • threat to culture
  • anger at the establishment (both parties)

I don't know how much is due to each...or whether there are big issues that don't occur to me...but if I were either of the Presidential candidates here I'd be trying to find out the answers, because I think it may wind up being the Rosetta stone for the election.

28

I think you'd have a hard time finding a person that wants to "exalt America above all others."  Same with Britain.  I assume there were few Brexit voters just now, who wanted to establish GB's independence because they wanted to feel superior.

There are times I misunderstand others, and I want to be corrected.  I do NOT want to argue against straw men.  When I honestly misunderstand the New York Times, simply explain that to me, and I'll be thankful to you for it.

And when the word "nationalism" is used in this political campaign, be advised that nationalists are not talking about their own superiority or about the desire to subjugate other cultures.

We're talking about autonomy.

30

And I don't doubt that there are plenty of folks with simple, self-focused resentments on both sides.  The rioting outside the political rallies is enough to sober us up about that.

31
Arne's picture

An interesting analogy to Britain and the EU is the 13 colonies and Britain circa 1770. The basic similarity is the larger entity and the smaller entity moving apart because the smaller entity was being directed by the larger entity to a degree it hadn't anticipated. Reading Paine's Common Sense yields some points of resonance between then and now, though the colonies' path vis a vis Britain from let's say 1720 to 1776 was very different from Britain's path vis a vis the EU from 1950 to 2016.

32
RockiesJeff's picture

Gentlemen, it is rare to find a sports blog that can speak beyond the obvious with a particular sport. Turn it to politics? Count me out. Except for here thankfully!

I don't consider myself a total novice with politics with a major way back when....my kids will say when probably Lincoln was in office. Anyway, I can't tell you how impressed and entertained I was skimming my way through all your thoughts. Serious thanks everyone!

33

Many of these thoughts reminded me of what I enjoyed so much about these discussions.  As at BJOL, very often you wind up with ... what was they used to call it ... oh yeah!  Idea exchange?

:- )  Echo Jeff's thanks.

34

It's almost shocking to see a political discussion that doesn't immediately degenerate into name calling and insults. 

35

Had a lot less to do with Brexit than they made it look.

The Leave Propaganda was all about using the money for British National Health Program instead of letting EU decide what project embrace.

Farage has already said he was mistaken when talking about that money (they didn't expect to win, it was just a political against David Cameron to become the leader of Tories) and they will try to use it the best way but without promising anymore it will be ALL to build Hospital (the motto was we can build a new hospital every week with that money).

All european people feel like the projects EU are developing aren't the most vital for their country and their money is wasted in a thousand of stupid and sometimes negatives programs; it's not as much about xenophobia and nationalism as some of the media and all of the nationalist parties try to sell it, it's about trying to really help the common people and not always the bank the financial group etc

36

France, Germany to put armies, budgets under E.U.?

Link:  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662827/Has-Britain-avoided-Euro...

Without shifting to a discussion over whether this is what far-left U.S. politicians envision for the future ..., I'd be interested to know whether SSI members would (in an ideal world) support the U.S. doing something like this -- eventually (in, say, 30-50 years) including military and budgetary control:

....

The main reason the UK voted to leave the EU is because the EU morphed from a free trade agreement with the other EU members into a Super State, remote and all-powerful. An analogy would be if the US joined a free trade agreement with 20 Latin American countries- but 25 years later it had become a Super State which could override any Act of Congress and in which the US was constantly outvoted 20-1.
How long do you think that the US would remain part of this outfit- in the totally improbable event that it ever joined?
Secondly, all-that's right, all- EU citizens have an absolute right to migrate to the UK (or anywhere else in the EU), and the poorer countries of eastern Europe were, in effect, dumping their unemployable youth in the UK. If Turkey ever joins the EU, their 80 million people will have an automatic right to move to the UK. None of this was envisioned when Britain first joined the Common Market (as it was then) in 1973.
Asked by: wdr1946

Answered: 6/28/2016
 Well, without disagreeing with any of that, I would like to say that I believe in the free movement of people across borders.  I count it among the great blessings of being an American that we can move around without showing our papers.   All 40 million people in Florida have the absolute right to move to Oklahoma is they choose to do so; no one thinks this is alarming.   
 
But while we may believe in this as an ideal, we might also recognize that there are practical obstacles to absolute freedom of movement.   We can work to reduce these barriers over time, but to simply declare that they do not exist. . .it's a little bit ambitious.  - James
....
Do you think it would be desirable to work towards a Latin American (or U.N.) Superstate which controlled U.S. militaries, budgets, and its Constitution?  
Not, would it be practical.  Rather, would it be desirable in the ideal?  -- Dr. D
37
Seattle Sports Outsider's picture

Would a US/Canadian superstate be more appealing? How about a US/Canadian/Australian superstate? How about throw in th UK to that? Sounds different when it's a group of states that share the "same" social values and largely appearance. 

 

Question: how would you respond to a Sino/Russian/Asian superstate? Russia/China/Mongolia/Southeast Asian Nations/Pakistan/Afghanistan? We want to get the best players for our team and fast. What I think these globalist organizations are projecting is the massive rise of China and Chinese influence and how to offset and conteract that before it's too late. When the US was rising, nobody did anything about it and we took over world lead. The West doesn't want China taking over, and the EU countries want to remain relevant long term - the large EU block helps maintain that.

38

No criticism implied.

...

As you point out, you would run into fewer ugly situations if the societies were running from remotely similar premises.

It would be one thing to have Aus/Can/NZ outvote the President, or the U.S. Congress, 3-1 on matters of foreign policy.  It would be a far different matter for Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Libya outvote our SuperState on the question of whether women could drive.  (Or whether the New Testament should be banned, or take your pick.)

The E.U. had recently revealed plans to ban plug-in English tea kettles.  Moe Dawg used the word 'picayune' to describe the mentalities of these technocrats.  The 20th century was full of dictators who were only too glad to control citizens' lives to the maximum extent possible, and often for the sheer joy in it.

But!  I'm gathering a sense that SSI denizens would, 90%+, oppose this type of social control by a SuperState over the U.S.

.....

In WWII, we got all the players on the field and fast, but it didn't require anybody to relinquish their sovereignties or their cultures to do it, right?

39
Seattl Outsider's picture

The US is a superstate. Made up of unique substates, with differing cultural norms and local laws. Those substrates subject to intervening power from the superstate. This superstate history includes the military subjugation of a section of those substates when a significant enough disagreement occurred. We live in a superstate already.

 It dominated the world, and continues to do so. When the next superstate arises. Seems like our superstate has served us well. Biggest and strongest team wins in the long run. 

40

The definition of a superstate is -- > a federation of established nations formed to create a larger, more powerful political entity.

Virginia and Connecticut were never rival nations with separate languages, Constitutions, caste systems, etc.  Every nation has its social diversity, but we don't argue that Ontario is a nation separate from Nova Scotia.

....

Many civil wars have occurred in the world's history; ours was arguably the most morally 'righteous' civil war ever fought.  

Yes, civil wars occur.  How do you get from there towards your suggested imperative to coalesce the world's peoples into smaller and more powerful blocs?

.....

Sometimes individual nations do prosper greatly.  Difficult also to see why this creates an imperative for other nations to form power blocs against them to the extent that those countries' identities are lost.  

It is not as though the U.S. might imminently destroy Japan in a war.  Even if it were, N.A.T.O. did just fine against the Soviet Union without inventing the Euro.

.....

But with Brexit, I thought we were talking about frictionless trade, to benefit the economically disadvantaged.  Is this the real issue, cutting the U.S. down to size?  :- )

41
tjm's picture

I don't think anyone actually wants a superstate, including me. But liberal trade regimes, which I do want, pose questions that eventually have to be answered. Do you really want that iPhone if you know that the Chinese teenager making it is cutting eight years off her life because of the conditions she's working in? Or how does that loss of eight years compare to how well and long she would have lived if she was still stuck in her tiny village? It was in trying to work out the complications of liberalised trade and borders that the EU faltered.

42

Anything we can do to make the world a better place, shy of subjugating the U.S.' autonomy to higher governments, is on the table for me.

I could even see (theoretically) a MNC like eBay answering to a U.N. body without a slippery slope to be too worried about.

....

To the extent you focus our attention on frictionless and fair trade, Terry, I'm right there with you.  There is an asterisk to the /cosign only when it comes to geopolitics, the question of what carrots and sticks the U.S. can and should use to influence human rights violations.

....

This all steps around the question of whether the U.K. was reasonable to expect a certain level of assimilation from immigrants.  The eradication of culture is a theme that gets discussed a lot, but am glad to see the emphasis on money.  Yes, national economies need to co-operate in a wise fashion.

43

The problem with this line of argument is that it just doesn't jive with reality. Americans just. Don't. Care. That's harsh but I'm serious - everyone knows that working conditions in the Asian factories are bad...but that doesn't stop people from buying goods manufactured in those factories. And it's not a liberal or conservative thing, either. Liberals concerned with working conditions and Trump-servatives concerned with "job killing" free trade will react the exact same way if they are faced with two similar products - one made in the USA with a higher price point and one made in China with a lower price point. They will buy the made in China product in overwhelming numbers. 

I have a pretty serous knee-jerk reaction to "save us from ourselves" governance policies. That's why Trump's trade policies are nonsense to me. The same people jeering him on with respect to his "China and Mexico trade war" meme are buying the heck out of products made in China and Mexico. They could all buy exclusively "made in the USA" products if they wanted to - but they simply will not pay the premium price that those products require. So what - we will elect someone to take that choice away, force higher prices on Americans and save us from ourselves. Bah. 

That's Adam Smith's invisible hand at work. When people say one thing and do something else, pay attention to what they do. Talk is cheap. Americans are far more interested in suppressing inflation than they are with working conditions in Asia or "made in the USA" manufacturing. The proof is in the purchasing. 

44

If you were to pick out a point that *I* feel hypocritical on, it would be this one.  I go to Wal-Mart and buy the best product for the money, not worrying about the workers' conditions.

I also go to restaurants and eat steaks and bacon from animals that were kept who knows where, buy eggs maybe from a chicken kept in a 12" cage.

I (as most Americans) have a very short attention span.  It's possible to get through to me if you laser-focus hard enough, but it takes a lot to call the nation's attention to "free-range eggs."  Maybe some of this media time devoted to Bill's and Donald's girlfriends ought to be replaced with some serious human (animal) rights airtime.

There has been some attention going to Saudi Arabia's contributions for the Clintons, who espouse women's rights, but that's been political.

....

That said, if we were President I suspect we'd find out that trade was an important carrot-and-stick device in our arsenal to PROTECT human rights.

45

If the link above is accurate, the proposal for a more unified Europe after Brexit (EU2?), would focus on security, the migrant crisis and econonomic cooperation.  Given the Russian invasion of the Ukraine, the refugee situation and the exit of Britian from the econonic co-op, these all seem to me logical things to be concerned about.

On the other hand, the notion of a 'superstate', with entirely merged armies and economic systems, and the elimination of national borders, is the opinion of one official in Poland.

But in the headline, the two are merged as one fact.  Such is the state of journalism today.

But to your point, I'm wondering what the impetus would ever be for the U.S. to even remotely consider such a move.  There is no external threat, military or economic, that would be better handled by an association of north/central American nations, as opposed to us going it alone.  And the idea of fully opening our borders seems like a political non-starter, doesn't it?  In any case, it has no attraction for me.

I'll just add that I"ve been talking to a lot of liberals about a lot of things for a lot of decades, and I've never once heard this idea proposed.  But at the same time, I'm not in my 20's anymore, and there could well be a sentiment brewing there that has entirely escaped me.  

46

Eminently reasonable, Diderot.  ... from where I stand, you and I could move forward from there and get a lot of things done.

....

Right.  The 'Superstate' link quoted one person.  Hope there aren't many more.  From what I see, this proposal has traction, but is up against fierce resistance from every European state.

....

Funny how you brought up, same time as I did, the generation gap.  I'm crystal clear about the fact that our generation had far different agendas.  This is the way of the world, though, that as Mommy and Daddy are going to be fond of the Beatles' edginess, Junior is going to be fond of Deicide (the band) as edgy.

47

Has no reasonable alternative to continuing to use English as its Lingua Franca. Oh, delicious irony.

English speaking people have an affinity to self government, having pretty much led the way toward it in the modern era. Bled and died for it, in fact. Saved the world from totalitarianism.

Of course Englishmen (non-pc, I know, but nothing else truly fits) are going to insist on ordering their own affairs rather than submit to a bureaucratic continental structure telling them what they can and can't do. 

As an English speaking American, I heartily welcome my brethren to the free world of truly sovereign nations.  Who knows? We may again need to save the world from the next folly toward totalitarian rule.

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