Konspiracy Korner: Bill James on Steve Clevenger
Reminding us more and more of Justin Smoak every day

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We're about a week or two behind the events here, but in the morning we like to offer the alert reader his choice of bacon and eggs, oatmeal, or calamari with mint sauce.

As you might have noticed, Steve Clevenger tweeted provocatively on the anti-Black Lives Matter side of the rioting issue in North Carolina.  Now, most sportswriters tend to need little information past "did I like the tweet or did I dislike it," as was the case with this "Take Out the Trash" article.

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Niners Nation has some good reads up, like 40-50 of them, asserting Colin Kaepernick's right to peaceful protest.  In the immortal words of Mao Tse-Dong, it's all in the way you phrase the debate.  :- )

To me the amusing question is:  Supposing that, in San Francisco, Kaepernick were taking a knee in order to make any given right-wing statement?  Let's say, to show solidarity with the 60-80% of Americans who vote for traditional marriage laws?  Do sportswriters then frame the debate in terms of peaceful protest?  Or does it then become a debate as to whether the San Francisco 49er's can be associated with bigotry?

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire, attributed.  Do a majority of Americans now believe this quaint sentiment to be obsolete?  It's okay with me if we're going to discourage "insensitivity" by lopping off hands, or careers, or bank accounts, but what say we grant equal protection under the law.  (Never knew what that phrase meant, but I bet I could win a debate in favor of it.)

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Didn't care about Kaepernick's cornball protest.  Did care, however, that the Mariners "took out the trash" based on a single Steve Clevenger tweet.  A tweet that, if photo-inverted to use pejorative language against the BLUE lives matter crew, probably would not have been considered out of the ordinary.

Oddly enough, James and I found ourselves shooting around the same corner.  See what you think.  Would the Mariners have been less likely to "take out the trash" if Clevenger's political position were different?  Would you be as supportive of harsh suspensions for Felix Hernandez and Robinson Cano for analogous tweets against Blue Lives Matter?

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The crux of Sodo Mojo's argument against Clevenger was that he had been "racially insensitive."  That is the logical starting point, apparently, for a Seattle Mariner fan's consideration of the Steve Clevenger situation.  

If you're a Mariners fan, you need a moral compass here on racial insensitivity and the punishments to be associated.  Twenty years ago we had this debate over John Rocker.  This one ain't 5% as important, but it remains interesting because the country remains interesting.

Okay, fine, "racial insensitivity" is the starting point for the M's fan's discussion here.  You can't discuss Steve Clevenger, or Twitter Inc. it seems, without understanding "racial insensitivity."  (It seemed to me that Clevenger was trash-talking mob violence, rather than skin color.)

But I lost track of the rules someplace.  Is it possible to be racially insensitive in two directions, or just one?  If only one direction, I'd say "fair" is not going to be a concept that is on the table for analysis  :: shrug ::   My big thing is "fairness."  If it IS a concept on the table, the big question is "Do we treat the local athletes the same, regardless of which candidate they vote for?"

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But there's probably something simpler going on.  Jim Bouton once said, A ballplayer's security in an organization is directly correlative to his batting average.  :- )  Or something like that.

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Given your past comments on MLB's reaction to comments by Marge Schott and John Rocker, I assume you disapprove of the Seattle Mariners suspending Steve Clevenger without pay, in response to his tweets? Or do you feel Clevenger's public statements crossed a line that justified suspension?
Asked by: jfadams

Answered: 9/26/2016
 First I have heard about it.   My opinion, which I realize is unpopular, is that employers should be prohibited by law from suspending employees based on what they do or say on their own time, unless the safely of a third party could be compromised by those actions (such as a doctor taking drugs, for example, or a person who operates heavy equipment taking drugs on his own time.)  
This is ESPECIALLY true in baseball, because in baseball, you don't have to enter into an agreement with a player for next season, or beyond the current contract.   If you are offended by what he says or does, you are free not to enter into an agreement with him.   If you enter into an agreement with him, you should be obligated to put up with whatever a person says. -- Bill James

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As a general rule, you and I are able to express our opinions on social media, without fearing our employers' retaliation.  Dr. Detecto can do this despite the fact that a social media organization DOES have the right to control his opinons expressed on social media.  ;- )  But when it comes to celebrities, we seem to feel that we're responsible for what they say.  :: shrug ::  I don't quite get it.

But my basic question is, do you admire Jerry DiPoto more or less for having dealt harshly with Steve Clevenger and his Twitter account?  On my end it cost him 10%, 20% of my personal admiration.  I know he's very concerned about that.  :- )

Respectfully,

Jeff

Blog: 

Comments

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Clevenger was hung out to dry (although he should have known that it might happen).  I read his comments, as you, as more aimed toward the mob-response (and the "you just have to understand" response that went with it) than at black individuals in particular.

With the suspension DiPoto essentially said that Clevenger was guilty of some contractual violation, likely damaging the Seattle brand.  Yet, he simply stated a commonly held opinion.

OK, he was stupid to twitter it.  

But had he said it to three buddies in the lockerroom would it be any different, really.  If DiPoto didn't whack him for his opinion then he whacked him for stating his opinion.  Seems there is an amendment that deals with that idea.

Maybe Colin K is a boob. I don't know, really.  I can have my suspicions, but I really don't know.  I think his protest was boorish if not boobish.  I do think he damaged the 49er brand (and the NFL brand) way more than Clevenger did his tean or league.  But if his behavior was contractually allowed, then I'm not sure what else you do with him other than let it go.

Same with Clevenger.  Let it go.  Make a statement that he doesn't represent the Mariners' organizational stance. Send him on his way after the season.

MLB has a rather large component of players from Latin America. Were Kyle Seager to argue that American immigration policy should stop all immigration to allow assimilation of those Spanish-speaking folks already here, or if he said "You know, Trump is right! Rapists and murderers are crossing the border.  Let's build a big wall and keep them out," should he be suspended?

Would he be?  Would his GG and 30 HR's come in to the equation?

If Seager had tweeted the Clevenger tweet would he, in the middle of a Wild Card race, have been suspended?

Worth considering.

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is a fascinating one Keith.  If the club were riding his bat and glove, and he came out pro-Wall in provocative language ... there you WOULD have a serious threat to clubhouse harmony.  You'd have to have a club meeting, I'm sure, and guess is that Seager would need to smooth some feathers over with his Latin teammates.

But it says here Seager would know better than to do that -- not in terms of laws or employment contracts, but in terms of friendships -- and it says here that Clevenger probably was caught by total surprise that anybody intepreted his Tweet as anti-Black.  They all know the code.  Clevenger wouldn't have alienated half his teammates with an intentionally racist tweet.

In fairness, it could be that DiPoto flushed Clevenger because some of his teammates responded angrily and wanted it done.  Many of these club suspensions seem based on the temperature in the room.

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1) I wonder if JD's reaction was based not primarily on community standards (as judged by the team), but by clubhouse standards.  My unpacking of the original tweets looks like this:

--the black protestors are funny

--they should be locked up 'like animals'

--ergo, black people are 'animals'

If you're a black player on the M's, how do you feel about Clevenger in your organization?  In your locker room?  And if you're a black free agent, how might the acceptance of Clevenger's statements affect your decision to sign with the M's?  

I'm not suggesting political considerations were not involved here...but maybe buisness ones were more important.

2) I would suggest the better question is not how Felix or Cano would be treated if they similarly tweeted against Blue Lives Matter--but if they had said exactly what Clevenger did about BLM.  Don't throw in the second variable.  THAT would be interesting.  Here's where I think your Bouton reference is spot on.  The law of the business world is, "are you worth the trouble."  Clevenger wasn't--but I bet others might be.

3) I personally recoil from the question, "do you support Black Lives Matter or Blue Lives Matter"?  I can't imaine how the answer is anything other than "both".  

4

I would *ask* him, "Did you mean to imply that African-American people are subhuman?  Here is one syllogism that might be interpreted from your tweet.  Is that what you meant?"

It's my impression that modern writers carefully AVOID going to the source to ask that, because they are well aware that the answer would wreck a good media-lynching.

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Thanks for the post.  In the clubhouse, I would expect a heartfelt apology and clarification from Steve Clevenger would go a long way.  They're large men in there, used to defusing tension and working out problems together.  I like locker rooms.  ;- )

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I am not willing to judge Dipoto yet on this issue. I believe the other decision has to be made first... whether or not Clevenger is non-tendered or not.

I am in agreement with you, Moe and Diderot that Steve was an idiot to post his feelings on twitter... regardless of what they are.

My view on Dipoto will change greatly with his next move. I have no issue with Dipoto suspending Steve for 7-10 days at the end of the year when he would not have played any way for a stupid comment that may offend teammates or future teammates. However, if Dipoto next non-tenders him, it loks like he punished Clevenger twice... and it looks politically motivated, and that is wrong, and flat out petty. One do one or the other - not both.

By non-tendering Clevenger in the immediate future, Dipoto would be releasing a possible asset, and thus hurting the team... even if it is in a miniscule way. For that, and the appearance of bowing to political pressure, my view of Dipoto would definitely drop at least 20%. 

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My view on Dipoto will change greatly with his next move. I have no issue with Dipoto suspending Steve for 7-10 days at the end of the year when he would not have played any way for a stupid comment that may offend teammates or future teammates. However, if Dipoto next non-tenders him, it loks like he punished Clevenger twice... and it looks politically motivated, and that is wrong, and flat out petty. One do one or the other - not both.


That is bizarre to me. Would you feel the same way if he was released for being the third or fourth best catcher in the organization costing $800k? I would non tender him for sucking, myself.  

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I think if Dipoto was already thinking about cutting / non-tendering Clevenger before the comments, then he should have cut the ties then.

Dipoto has a very good idea what the M's roster is going to look like for the Rule 5 draft right now. There may be one or two decisions to be made, but Clevenger is not one of them... and he never was. Either the decision has been made to keep him on the 40 man, and store him in Tacoma because at $800K he is somewhat of an asset... or he is going to be non-tendered. There is no way this incident should have had any bearing on his employment, because the team has had plenty of time to evaluate him when he was playing. Nothing about Clevenger or the M's catchers changed when Clevenger went on the DL. Sucre was still only defense. Iannetta was still old and not hitting, and Zunino was still the heir apparent.  

Moreover, IF this incident did for some reason change the team's perception of Clevenger, Dipoto knew that less than 24 hours after the tweet. There is no reason to wait. There is no reason to suspend him. Just cut him. 

Thus, when the decision was made to suspend Clevenger, it made little sense to me... but since we all thought Clevenger could hit 12 months ago or so, maybe Dipoto is willing to give him a chance. However, if Clevenger gets non tendered in November... That is way too late, and again would be flat out petty.

10
Ryno's picture

I know this isn't technically on topic, but it is related to my (our?) admiration of Jerry Dipoto. When Josh Hamilton reported his drug relapse as a member of the Angels in 2015, the Angels allegedly leaked his admission to the press in the hope of getting out from under his contract, correct? Jerry Dipoto was GM of the Angels at the time, so my question is to what degree was he likely responsible for what transpired? Obviously we may never know, but it is something that is troubling to me...

11

Arte Moreno was known to be thoroughly disgusted by Hamilton.  Disgusted by Hamilton's abuse of his second chance, of Moreno's graces,* etc.  

Would suspect that to be a decision that came from over DiPoto's head, and would give a 60%, 70% chance that the Clevenger suspension was the same way.  However, it's hard for me to imagine DiPoto going to war in Clevenger's defense, based on the freedom of speech principles outlined by James.  ... the original M's reaction did have a reference to free speech.

Just whistling in the dark, of course.  As is necessary, given the M's silence on these matters.

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He makes baseball decisions.  This is a question of brand image.

Of course, he's the person who 'announced' the decision.  But i think it's impossible he made it unilaterally.

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Ownership may not be the same overly-Disney-Park-PC-nonsense that was here for decades, but this still may have been their call.

Beyond that, regardless of actual morality, the perceived morality from the casual fan if they did nothing could have had an impact.  I'm not going to say there would have been picketing and boycotting but can you say that there wouldn't have?

I didn't find anything specifically racist except for the associating of separate phrases that might or might not have been intended that way.  The hammer did come down a bit hard in my opinion.

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Was this around the time Adam Jones grumbled about the fact that since MLB has few African Americans, there's not a lot of protesting you can do in MLB?

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As the "white man's game".  Not overtly racist but certainly insensitive.   Just thinking out loud regarding freedom of speech and our protection against government persecution. Says nothing about how a baseball team and its ownership might react to something said by an employee. 

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