Already posted on the other thread that some of Ghost's #'s are inaccurate.
From this article: http://www.thebigbangauthor.com/2011/10/nfl-players-life-expectancy-migh...
The 1971-72 Dallas Cowboys were champions of Super Bowl VI. Some of the more famous players then and now include: Roger Staubach, Calvin Hill, Dan Reeves, Mike Ditka, Bob Lilly and Charlie Waters. Of the 45 players on the roster, here are some interesting facts:
•3 have died, 42 are still alive. (93% are living)
•Average age of the 3 deceased players is 54.
•Average age of those currently alive, 67.
•The players had a 16 year age range. Those alive are 61 to 77.
•Average life span if every living player suddenly died today would be 66.
•Average life span if average living player lives 10 more years would be 76.
•Average life span for US men is also 76.
•Average weight of '71 starting Cowboys offensive line, 253 lbs. For 2011, 311 lbs (gain of 23%).
•Average height of '71 starting offensive line, 6'4". 2011, 6'5".
The 1981-82 San Francisco 49ers were champions of Super Bowl XVI. Some of the more famous players then and now include: Joe Montana, Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, Keena Turner and Ronnie Lott. Of the 45 players on the roster (not including the reserves), here are some interesting facts:
•2 have died, 43 are still alive. (96% are living)
•Average age of the 2 deceased players is 50.
•Average age of those currently alive, 58.
•The players had a 12 year age range. Those alive are 51 to 63.
•Average life span if every living player suddenly died today would be 57.
•Average life span if average living player lives about 20 more years would be 76.
•Average life span for US men is also 76.
•Average weight of '81 49ers starting offensive line, 261 lbs. For 2011, 322 lbs (gain of 23%).
•Average height of '81 starting offensive line, 6'5". 2011, 6'5".
Matty sez, compassionately and logically,
I've been looking at the data regarding our national obsession (baseball is our pastime...football is something else, considering it occurs only weekly and generally involves only 5 total hours of time per week...yet we Americans give it far more money than we give to baseball). This isn't meant to tick people off...just to start a dialogue...I'm becoming very concerned that what we do with American Football is the moral equivalent of ritual sacrifice.
Did you folks know that the oldest man alive today to have ever played at least 4 years of NFL football is 73?
Did you know that football stars who have died in the last ten years have been giving their brains over to medical science for study because, even as they go mad from dementia and and neurological diseases that are fast on the rise in the game's M.A.S.H. unit, they know that football caused their impending deaths? And did you know that those autopsies have unveiled scorched brains riddled with lesions and clear signs of severe internal bleeding long forgotten?
Would you sit comfortably on your couch and watch the NFL if you could see the blood pouring into their brains?
The average life expectancy of four-year NFL veterans is 54.6 years if you look at players who hit their prime in the 60s and 70s, and today's game has a much steeper injury rate, is filled with bigger players and there are five times as many concussion reports and other catastrophic back, neck and head injuries. In the average season post 1995, there've been roughly 82 catastrophic neurological injuries in football each year - that's almost three per team. Per year! And that's just spinal column, neck and head injuries that merited at least 8 weeks on the IL...it's HUNDREDS...PER YEAR...for other skeletal and connective tissue injuries with life-long repercussions such as chronic arthritis, brittle bone disease and joint death.
I think football is no better than the Roman Colosseum or the Aztec's virgin sacrifice...I used to find it fun...but I can't bring myself to even watch - not until they do something about the body count and the human misery they're inflicting on the world. This message coming to you from a man who has always voted republican and thinks liberal attempts to make things like air shows and hand guns illegal are insulting and beneath our collective dignity. Football can seem very heroic, but they used to sing songs about toreadors and further back, it was gladiators...and most of us have moved on and recognized how barbaric and morally depraved such things were. When will we take a harder look at football?
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=== Roundtable, Dept. ===
Did you folks know that the oldest man alive today to have ever played at least 4 years of NFL football is 73?
Did not know. Amazing.* *A little too amazing!, LOL - see MoDawg's comment below.
The average life expectancy of four-year NFL veterans is 54.6 years if you look at players who hit their prime in the 60s and 70s
That one's even more amazing.
Daniel Amen, the guy I listen to on brain research, is also campaigning against football in its present form; he's putting the info out there that EVERY hit to the head, including with high-tech helmets, causes alarming brain damage. Before even commenting on Matt's position, we'd better be fully aware of the extent of the brain damage being inflicted every weekend. It is far beyond what most would imagine. The effect on lives is tragic.
One* difference between football and Aztecs throwing maidens into volcanoes is that the maidens weren't paid and didn't have the option to do something else. :- ) "Murder" implies a certain lack of volunteerism on the part of the victim....
Society envies pro athletes -- envies them with the passion of a thousand burning suns -- and it's going to be hard to drum up the empathy necessary to get federal laws changed. As all good politicians know, mob psychology plays a big part in the battle against political inertia. You put up a video of a 50-something NFL player with Alzheimer's, fine ... but is that video going to be able to overcome the blizzard of images that show celebrities driving hot cars and scoring chicks? Which is going to trump which, as it applies to the mob at large? Which influences the base part of the brain more?
...........................
It's a funny thing. If you asked most 20-year-old men whether they wanted to be Terrell Owens, all the babes and bling and whatnot, but that they'd probably only live to 55, they would choose to be T.O., I think.
America was built on freedoms, so *I* believe that it's their choice. There's a major hypocrisy here on our part, though, since society has signed off on ticketing drivers who choose not to fasten their seat belts, and motorcycle riders who choose not to wear helmets. Most Americans now truly believe that the government can take away your right to do anything they think is demonstrably stupid. Look at the tone in this article: "Helmetless riders freak me out. They make me cringe. We obviously need to pass laws that get them out of our sight." That blogger is coming from a much different place than is Matt, of course.
Me, I'm a freedoms guy, so I would mandate education, with brain imaging pictures, videos from 55-year-olds with Alzheimer's, etc., and then let the young men do what they wanted. I would certainly try to talk my son out of accepting a UW football scholarship, but it's his life.
Kudos to Matt for his humanity and his heart, but I'm not (yet) convinced that voluntary participation in gladiator fights is a bad thing.
Comments
That last line... was looking for that kind of stat when doing the Wilson article. People tend to think that tall linemen are a 21st-century thing. Nah, they were arguing about 6' quarterbacks in the 1960's if not 1950's.
In the 60s/70s there were very few players who were 300 pounds...now the average weight of a D-Lineman/O-Lineman is 300-ish. That's the main problem here.
I would agree with you, Doc, that at least NFL players know what they're signing up for and are compromised for it. BUT...I seriously doubt football players know what they're signing up for. Their coaches at all levels see them get concussions at age 10 and tell them to shake it off, take one week off and come right back at 'em. No one tells these guys that they're cutting their lives practically in half. We all agreed that cigarette companies had to warn people that their product was potentially deadly...no one is telling NFL fans they're watching some of those players die in slow motion and no one is telling football players that what they're doing could kill them.
If I hit a helmetless cyclist my insurance premiums go up more than if I hit a helmeted cyclist. We ticket drivers because many personal freedoms have an effect on more than just ourselves.
I don't understand the point of the article. Underground coal miners have a tragically short life span, on average. Disease is rampant. I don't see anyone boycotting their consumption of electricity because of it. Ditto modern farming - an amazingly disaster prone occupation that results in deaths and maimings every single year. Heck, you want to find a group of broken down ex-entertainers take a look at the retired bullriders. Talk about chronic pain.
Shrug. Every occupation has its hazards. There's nobody above highschool playing football that doesn't understand the risks. And the rewards. The second they step onto the field they risk injury and even death on the field. That the risks persist after their playing days isn't exactly an unknown.
So you don't think players know what they are signing up for. You don't think fans know they are watching players "die in slow motion." (Hysterical hyperbole if there ever was) What do you want, a waiver to be signed by every player? A warning on the bottom of the screen of every televised game and on every game ticket?
Somehow I doubt that would satisfy you. Warning labels didn't satisfy the anti tobacco movement. Bans and profit confiscation were their only satisfaction. How are you any different? Legit question.
I'm afraid that football as we know it will not survive to the next generation. Sadly, the NFL is set up for the perfect storm by being both the ultimate form of American masculinity and by making billions of dollars. The attack has been in the works for a while and it will be relentless.
As uncomfortable as so many are to even acknowledge it there is in fact a culture war going on in this country. I am an average red blooded country kid. I grew up hunting, shooting, playing football and riding dirt bikes. It's no accident that every single one of these expressions of my masculine identity are under assault in this country and also quite interesting that those attacks come almost exclusively from one side of the political spectrum. There is a huge political machine at work.
There is also a huge pay day for the legal team that takes down the NFL. Money is a huge factor in all of this. Soccer causes brain damage. Repeated heading of the ball eventually causes the same damage as a concussion. It's well documented so why is soccer getting a free pass? Why aren't we exposed to countless stories with made up statistics about the danger of soccer? Because soccer isn't seen as an exclusive masculine pursuit and it doesn't have the deep pockets to go after. Sound crazy? Well there was a time when not being allowed to light up a smoke after dinner sounded crazy. Tobacco companies being held responsible for peoples deaths? Yeah that sounded crazy at one point too. After all, the packs have warning labels on them. Who doesn't know they can give you cancer?
The law suit against the tobacco companies wasn't won overnight. It wasn't won on the first try or the second try or... lets just say it took a lot of tries. What changed between the first attempt and the final multibillion dollar payout to the lawyers? Years of attack campaigns, some using accurate data and some not, that eventually tilted the public mind that jury pools are drawn from. I believe that right now we are in that early stage of the same negative publicity campaign against football. It's not sloppiness or accidental that the story ghost got his information about the oldest NFL player from was wildly inaccurate. Facts don't matter in smear campaigns. Right now all that matters is coloring the minds of a future jury pool, facts be damned.
The recent book slandering my beloved childhood hero Walter Payton was what really got me thinking about this. I questioned why on earth someone would go after a dead guy who by all accounts of those who knew him was a wonderful man. Well what better way to turn public opinion against an institution than to turn it's heroes into sad victims of that very institution? And of course Walter is not around to set the record straight, how convenient. Bet you dollars to doughnuts you'll see more books like that one hit the shelves in the near future.
I don't watch anymore either, for two reasons. Because the teams turn over so much every year, and also the violence really has gotten beyond what I want to watch. Maybe the solution is to ban helmets and pads, as some would suggest. Seems to work for rugby and Aussie rules, with the idea being that people wouldn't be so reckless with hits. Who knows what would really happen, though.
...read carefully here auto5...in my original comment, I stated very clearly that I am, if anything, to the RIGHT of the mainstream GOP when it comes to personal liberty...and Doc himself is generally conservative in the broad spectrum of life, especially when it comes to the culture war. It might give you a tad bit of pause to recognize that this particular line of concern was not spawned by a left-wing political machine with the goal of immasculating men.
The funny thing is...I agree with your general message. I'm opposed to gun control, opposed to the liberal line of reasoning that they should be allowed to make laws banning dangerous activities because the rest of the country has to pay for the resulting injuries, and opposed to making any sort of law banning American football. My wish, in this situation, is that parents be given the facts about the brutality of modern football before giving their kids the greenlight to join peewee leagues and that high school football programs be required to show their players the footage/statistics/medical facts regarding football injuries and lifelong consequences. You won't stop football...but you will force the sport to adapt over time as young talents choose less hazardous sports...just because I'm for personality responsibility and unfettered liberty doesn't mean I don't see a role for government in providing information about risk, and just because I think some action needs to be taken doesn't mean I think football should be torn down.
I came here looking for a simple debate, not looking for a flame war.
What I want is the valid and full distribution of information regarding the risks of playing football. Lawyers took tobacco bans too far...I'm not a lawyer. You accuse me of hysterical hyperbole and then you hyperbolously accuse me of being part of some vast left-wing conspiracy.
Perhaps I shouldn't have brought this up. Forgive me.
Sorry - that ain't gonna happen. Big tobacco engaged in massively deceptive practices. Executives testified to congress under oath that nicotine was not addictive and smoking didn't cause cancer when the KNEW the exact opposite was true. I don't see any of that in the NFL. They may have lived in denial for a while but they are taking very real steps to deal with concussion now. They may not have done the due diligence that they should have on the impact of head injury but once the proof was there, they reacted in a positive manner.
The NFL isn't even the most violent sport we've got. The fastest growing sport in the country is MMA - a collection of sport leagues where people hit, kick and strangle each other into submission on PPV. We've known for decades what head trauma does to professional boxers - no regulation or lawsuits have ever stuck.
The NFL will be just fine.
Per a Bill James article, I think, you could increase the number of games to 60 or so. Playing 4 times a week would reduce the number of hard hits.
If you don't look at the context, numbers tend to skew.
There's a grantland article at /story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
This piece does a great job showing that, believe it or not, MLB players die more often than NFL players. Especially when you look at the non-linemen, and even the linemen die at the same rate as MLB players. Obviously they adjust for significant factors, but without adjustment you just don't get the full story.
It's the ESPN narrative, high profile deaths, and media bias that paints NFL as "dangerous," when in reality it's likely not nearly as dangerous as something like boxing. But hey, it's the same reason most of America thinks women get paid less than men. If you don't account for outside factors, you get a skewed picture that fits an agenda, rather than reality.
Very loaded. It begs being questioned just how fully you stand behind those kind of words. Few people would be comfortable curbing murder by just a little bit. Murder is the type of thing that demands radical action not greater disclosure.
The point of me saying "legitimate question" was not to come across as an accusation but rather to invite you to clarify.
My apologies if my wording felt too strong.
Its good to have a hurt conscience for people who are incredibly reckless with their bodies. We see it every day. This morning I passed a streets worker who was sawing a hole into a street with a carbon-disc saw and spewing clouds of powdered concrete into his face without a respirator. Will that dude live to see seventy? I don't think so. Did I stop to say anything, such as "get a mask, you're killing yourself". Nah. I just walked by. He probably already knows that breathing rocks is bad for him. Next time maybe. . .
People are also killing themselves with sugar, processed foods, partially hydrogenated soybean oil and the like. If you think diabetes is no big deal, wait until the doc saws off one of your legs (a medical doctor, not the proprietor of this site who wrote a dissertation on pitching wind ups).
We see this kind of stuff every day. Ghost is right. Football players are ruining their brains for a few years of fame and fortune. My favorite example of a celebrity who sacrificed his brain for fame and fortune is Mohammed Ali. His great scheme was to allow George "I can kill a normal man with either hand" Foreman to beat him to death until Foreman got tired and passed out from moving his tremendous arms. It worked great. Nowadays, Ali can barely talk, while Foreman is still in good health and still selling his grills. Was it worth it? Ali has his pride intact. He gets to call himself "the greatest" and doesn't seem to mind the terrible price he paid. Both Ali and Foreman seem to be happy.
There are even more dangerous entertainments than football. Car racing comes to mind as the most deadly sport. Also, David Blaine, the illusionist has come close to killing himself several times. I hope he doesn't wind up like Houdini, but isn't that why people pay to watch him?
Now as far as the audience: Are NASCAR fans aiders and abetters to murder? Sure. The elements fit. It is known as reckless indifference murder, depraved heart murder, or murder in the second degree in most places. You commit it by doing something that creates a substantial and unjustifiable risk of death, not caring, and then killing someone. Nick Adenhart's killer was convicted of this. He knew drunk driving was bad because he might kill someone, it was his second offense, and he did it anyway. An aider and abetter is someone who encourages or facilitates an offense. When you look at racing, a fan knows that a certain percentage of race car drivers are going to die from horrific car wrecks, and he doesn't care, and he pays to promote the sport. In fact, most race fans like a little bit of violence. Last I heard, Daytona, and Talladega, the two fastest and most dangerous tracks in the U.S. are the most popular.
Fight fans (I've been guilty of this) are the worst. When Brock Lesnar throws someone down and starts smashing their head, everyone cheers.
Are these things right?
The flip argument is that death bothers us, but everyone dies. Is it really a tragedy when someone accomplishes something great and heroic, finishes their work, and then dies at a young age? People are inspired by greatness. It distracts them from the pain and tragedy of life, which for many people is short, futile, disappointing and obscure. The human turnover is 100 percent per century and people are measured by how they lived, not how they died.
So no accusation intended that you are part of some left wing cabal. Sorry if I sounded to accusational.
That being said there are organized groups with agendas trying to accomplish political goals. That's not conspiracy, it's fact. I wouldn't even say it's wrong. Part of our American system.
I think most of these groups are rather small and the public that are influenced by their press releases and statements and publicity stunts are not "in" on some conspiracy. Using tobacco as an example anti smoking groups staged "die ins" and a variety of other creative actions that made it a trendy thing to vocally dislike the tobacco industry. Journalists make reputations and money by growing an audience. Best way to do that is to cover trendy topics and be a little sensational. I think that leads to journalists being sloppy at best and fudging numbers at worst. The inaccurate story you were basing your oldest NFL vet comment on is a great example. That has nothing to do with your political affinity or some conspiracy. It has everything to do with bad journalism influencing public opinion. Sometimes to the point of tilting an issue into some governmental regulation.
I just have fears of seeing future NFL players wearing 2 foot diameter helmets and another 20 pounds of padding and I think public clamoring based on misinformation could lead to just that..
Riffing off this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/the-impending-d... , I am very interested in the community's perspective on Ta-Nehisi Coates' very interesting take.
The money quote: "I don't know what the adults will do. But you tell a parent that their kid has a five percent chance of developing crippling brain damage through playing a sport, and you will see the end of Pop Warner and probably the end of high school football. Colleges would likely follow. (How common are college boxing teams these days?) After that, I don't know how pro football can stand for long."
The argument being that the future of the sport is endangered, not because of moral qualms over consenting-adults killing themselves for entertainment, but because the supply of athletes will surely dwindle over the next 20 years.