I posted my response to the previous thread before I read this one. Thanks for the props...and I did refer to golf in that one.
And I think my comparison to punch shots stands.
Doc, Romero is a front foot hitter....he's an old time hitter.
There was a pretty good front foot hitter by the name of Henry Aaron, you will remember. He, too, had a large glide into the ball. BTW, as you look at the video below, I think you'll see his late "hinge," as well.
I remember Aaron being described as a "wrist" hitter. I don't remember if that was him describing himself or not. I do know I heard him talk about hitting off of his front leg.
Anyway, I don't think Romero's "flaw" is fatal. I just think it isn't what we typically see in the modern, "leveraged," swing.
Sammy Snead and Bobby Jones both played from an across the line position at the top. The modern trend in teaching is to get players in a layed-off position. Many modern teachers would try to move a student named Snead away from his natural (smooth and efficient) tendency. Interestingly, those type of swings have much more motion/movement than the modern swing.
But if you ask folks who had the most graceful swings in the history of the game, Snead and Jones would be near the top (or at the top) of every list.
I see an old-time swing in Romero. Off the front leg, head slides, Aaron-like, Clemente-like. Would appreciate your analysis. I don't know how that relates to aiki, but I do know that you will not find two guys who look more relaxed at the plate than Aaron and Clemente.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhzy9b_hank-aaron-explains-how-he-would...
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=roberto+clemente+video&mid=49A96455C...
moe
The tragedy occurs as Romero proceeds from load into launch. If you just joined us, you missed the first two articles, which are rolling off the swing recorded at 2:38 on this video ....
Okay, here's that ready (load) position again -- check the position of his head at T minus a fraction of a sec:
.......................................
Now as Romero fires the bat, his head has already travelled toward the pitcher by about 8-12 inches. He needs to be hitting against a firm front side, as is true of all baseball hitters and as is true of all golfers, but check the degree to which the front knee has broken down:
........................................
And as he follows through, the head continues to glide forward as though on greased rails:
........................................
Let's give you a followup pic at Hawking's proverbial 0.00000001 seconds following the Big Bang. You can see how fast his head and knee are travelling. Or just check the video again. I mean, look at how little his bat has moved; that gives you an idea of what a tiny fraction of time we're talking about here, and yet check the head and knee. Here goes. The blue line is where his head started:
Romero is splashing the fences with a high school "gliding" flaw in his swing, what's he going to do once he learns to stay on his back foot like Edgar did?
Or suppose that the young Randy Johnson was throwing 95 MPH and, whoops, oh you're allowed to step toward home plate?
Romero's gotta fix that gliding thing. But that's not necessarily hard to do, and in about 20% of his internet swings, he does stay back. Here's an example.
Imagine the possibilities.
.
Comments
Would defer to you on some of these items amigo ... very interesting stuff...
I wonder about the connection between relaxation and going over to get the ball the way some of these guys do.
.................
On your Aaron vid above. As he steps forward, his CG goes forward and Aaron's head moves about 6-8 inches as he loads. But then as his left shoulder unwinds, what happens to his head then? As the wrists unsnap his chin sinks, as opposed to moving forward, right?
Romero, his head is traveling forward at high velocity *as he accelerates the bat into the strike zone.* Are you saying that Snead's head was moving forward significantly as he accelerated the clubhead into the ball?
.................
I love outside-the-box ideas ... and the proposal that a lever need not have a stable fulcrum to deliver power, that is outside the box both for baseball and for Newtonian physics ... :- )
More seriously, these dynamics are far more complex than can be captured with a 2D lever-and-fulcrum model, so bring it on. This is a fascinating idea, the suggestion that you don't need to keep your head back in golf or in hitting.
But he's gonna have 4000 hits doing it. He'd make an American instructor cry - doesn't mean it can't work for him.
Sometimes physical freaks can get away with things they "should not" do. That was Clemente. He did this bizarre back-shoulder lunge with a wrist hack at ball that should have gone about 60 feet as a pop up, and would clear the fence. I would never tell a young hitter, "Hey man, swing like Clemente" because most kids aren't physical freaks.
But then Vlad Guerrero shows up with a torqued arm swing designed to rip up his back and a strike zone the size of the Taj Mahal and he hits .318 CAREER with ridiculous power. Some guys do bad things to good purpose.
I agree with moe, as long as he hits like this you change nothing. He seems too big for 2B, but he only played it because of the busted arm that required him not to be throwing all the way across the diamond as he recovered. If and when he moves to 3B full-time, the bat plays there now.
Romero doesn't have Gary Sheffield batspeed, but he's closer to that side of the scale. It allows for head movement (or the harsh bat movement like Sheffield loved) because the lead time to get the bat launched is much reduced. The ball is closer to the hitter when all that movement starts happening so it has less time to break away from them. With a slow launch you're starting the movement with the ball several feet further away.
He also stands at the back of the box - he's not exactly straddling the plate. His front foot is on the plate and he his back leg is almost in the catcher's lap. That gives the ball all kinds of time to break. You'd think he'd stand up in the box, take the break out of it and relying on his batspeed to compensate for the loss of time to react, but he has the opposite approach. I'd love to ask him whether he likes hitting breaking balls and gears up for them while then relying on the batspeed and extra step backward in the batter's box to let him catch up to heaters.
He seems more of an artist type. We'll see if he can keep the quality work coming as the fastballs get faster and the pitchers get more talented.
~G
All golfers move their head forward to some degree, but I wasn't meaning that his head moves forward "through the ball." It moves forward to the ball. My apologies for being unclear.
A lever needs a fulcurm, certainly. But "unorthodox" motions are often effective ones.
Think Silk Wilkes' jumpshot. It was an ugly thing of beauty.
I'm leaving Romero alone, until he "can't" hit. It just looks like he's so centered and focused and relaxed that I'm not giving him anything to think about.
"Hit it hard kid," will be more than enough.
There was a golf teacher in the 40's named Homer Kelly who wrote a bible on mechanical golf efficiency titled "The Golfing Machine." It reduced the swing to angles and vectors and geometry and physics.
Mechanically, it was correct of course.
But golfers and hitters aren't machines, Iron Byrons. There is a huge element of "feel" involved....and I think, a huge visual component.
Change what Romero does, too much, and he may not see the ball as well....and he may swing in a way that his body doesn't want to.
We underestimate the artful characteristic of athletic effort.
Let's see if Romero is an artist, before we mechanize him.
moe
Moe, I assume you know that Homer Kelley was transplanted to the Northwest from Minnesota at the start of the Depression in 1929. I was able to study under him and one of his gurus after the Golfing Machine was published in the late '60's. I appreciate your point about the fact that athletes are not machines and that the human element/feel must be considered as well. Still physics plays a direct role of every pitch, hit or tee shot. One's ability must learn to maximize its potential through the basics/physics while utilizing skills Both should be working in tandem, not in opposition. Well said as it brought back many memories! I think Romero has the rare combination to keep hitting at higher levels.