On whether a dominant cage fighter might not be the best martial arts technician,
I think that most martial arts place too high an emphasis on quantity of effective moves, rather than perfecting one unstoppable hold or blow. What your left with is many blackbelts who have twenty effective and beautiful ways to dispatch scrubs, but who wilt under top flight competition.
For example, to be a blackbelt in Judo, you have to competently finish (if memory serves)15 standing techniques, 10 ground techniques, four or five different strangles, the japanese names for all of the above, and so on. The U.S. Judo world team guys usually only practice one unstoppable throw, and base the rest of their game on it or the threat of it. They live, and die on the strength of their best move. Who plays better Judo? The technician with 15 throws, or Koga, who beat the whole world, for years, with one throw reminiscent of Taz from Looney Tunes?
Same goes for wrestling. John Smith only had one move, a low snatching single where he didn't tie up with the other guys. Jordan Borroughs recently won a freestyle world championship with a powerful driving double leg tackle.
The point is, like baseball, grappling success is determined by the quality of a person's best move, rather than being generally well rounded.
I think that other martial arts work the same way. I think that if martial artists want to be more effective fighters, they should stop spending time practicing moves they are unsuited for, and master moves that play to their strengths until a signature weapon or two emerges.
I'd rather take Felix throwing his two seamer exclusively, than Ryan Franklin throwing all five of his pitches. I'd rather take Edgar Martinez who does nothing but hit, than I would take Willie Bloomquist who can hit passably, and play every position in the game.
Just one fight and baseball fan's perspective.
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Moe sez,
What I see is an entirely natural move that hasn't been tweaked/coached/frame-by-framed. Simple. Simple. ... with almost no "effort" or strain.
I like this way of putting it amigo. Walker's organization down the center line does seem to come naturally to him, and all his movements are light and easy.
We definitely give him credit for that. And this is where the natural all-sport athleticism absolutely comes into play. Body control comes easily to guys like Taijuan.
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In the aikido dojo, these are two different concepts -- the "lightness" and "sureness" of your movements, as opposed to the dynamic tension you have learned to gather. Two different things.
In aikido, Walker's mechanics (not his K rate!) would be 3rd or 2nd kyu. 1st kyu students - right before black belt - are expected to have excellent torque to their movements.
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=== The Dynamic Spiral ===
Which comes first? (1) First the steps in the process must be automatic and unthinking ... here comes the energy of uke's right hand, and your own left hand moves as an echo, without thought process. In baseball, Taijuan has to "stand tall" without realizing that he's standing tall.
Once the sequence is automatic, now we can speak of (2) the lightness and sureness of the movement ... it is fun to get from point A to point B and you are looking forward to being there. The 3rd-kyu student enjoys catching the right cross, turning the wrist out, and finishing with elan. Taijuan, in his pitching motion, is looking forward to letting the ball go. He's supremely confident, having fun out there, even if he doesn't realize it. That's a great thought :- )
Only after all of this does the aiki sensei begin to address (3) the question of dynamic load, of earth-shattering power... maybe Taijuan is now at the point in which he can begin to lead with his front hip a bit more. Hm.
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=== Sports as a First Language ===
Moe's absolutely right about the lightness and sureness of the teenager's mechanics, and it helped me to understand him a lot better. Sometimes in the dojo you meet guys like Taijuan, and from their very first lesson they have this floating quality to their movements. They're born having mastered their bodies. Sports is Taijuan's mother tongue.
I probably don't have to tell you that a lot of the guys who win UFC fights are only brown or blue belt in their chosen arts. Being a virtuoso in technique isn't the same thing as being the most effective fighter.
Taijuan is 3rd kyu in mechanics, but 4th dan in fighting ability :- )
Comments
They're not interested in "art"; they're interested in winning. So they perfect a few simple and effective moves and avoid confusion in the heat of the moment.
I wonder if this general sports truth is part of --- > why I'm so annoyed with the insistence that Pineda and Paxton get 3rd pitches.
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This "signature move" point of yours, Mojo, is a Grand Theme in sports. Do what you do good.
/end thread
*laughs* But yeah, one serious weapon, don't worry about the rest. In the rotation, you need two, like Randy Johnson.
The only reason you need 5 is if the other 4 aren't very weapon-like and you need to rely on deception and guessing to carry the day. You can be like Felix and HAVE five, but he doesn't need all of those to be a great pitcher.
If they know it's coming, and you know it's coming, and they still can't do anything about it? That's a weapon, and that'll carry you a long, long way.
~G
End threads, that is.
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James and Neyer summarized their book on pitchers by saying that even starters could get by on ONE great pitch, along with some show-me pitches, I guess.
Aaron Sele's curve ball, Schilling's and Colon's heaters. There have been groundball pitchers who came with the fastball just about every pitch.
But yeah. You want to see two knockdown K pitches if you're going to go with two.
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What I can't get, is how a guy like Carl Willis has not noticed the existences of the Clayton Kershaws and Erik Bedards of the world. Two-pitch lefties aren't even uncommon.
I think that if martial artists want to be more effective fighters, they should stop spending time practicing moves they are unsuited for, and master moves that play to their strengths until a signature weapon or two emerges.
Funny - Bruce Lee felt much the same way. His Jeet Kun Do was developed because he came to believe that formal martial arts had become like "dry land swimming" and unsuited for real world combat.
Which is why said that if Walker can spot his heater at 95 (including spotting it off the plate) and throw a yakker that is in the vicinity of the strike zone, then he ready now.
Let the 3rd pitch come later, and naturally....two will do just fine for '12.
LOL! Only cuz I talk too much.
I'm workin' on it. ;)
But yeah, a pitcher can be good with one weapon as a starter and great with two. Three is just to make the pitching coach feel better. When a pitcher can't control his breaking ball, it makes for a shorter outing. That's when Bedard takes 100 pitches to go 5.
Randy - once he ironed out his walks issue - never had trouble going deep into games, though. Even if the slider was off, nobody could hit that fastball.
Pineda has a fastball that was rough on the opposition that way. We'll see if Walker does, but the guys seeing him live said it was as tough as it looks.
I know Paxton does - his FB on the hands, especially up and in to lefties, is murder. He didn't throw anything else in the Futures game and it was beautiful. Felix never threw easier and more elegant heat. Paxton's changeup has become at least a show-me pitch to be aware of, and that's enough to let the coaches breathe a little easier and get his foot in the door with his two good pitches.
We do have pitchers with significant weapons, and that's nice to see. Such a welcome change - and one that can make that jump to the majors an easier trip to be sure. Chris Tillman used to have a fastball weapon, but was a bit wild and as far as I can tell was told to aim his stuff instead of throwing it.
He promptly fell into the Abyss of Blah where Beavan resides. Of all the things we tell our young arms, I hope the first one is to trust their stuff and let it take them to good places.
This includes Hultzen - I don't care what he says about pitching to contact, he'd better have faith enough to want to miss bats too. Willingly sacrificing your pitching weapons seems like a pointless endeavor, especially when these three guys all have workable mechanics to say the least.
Fire away!
~G
Interesting comment from Drayer's blog (bit.ly/qneXmh) this morning:
Jack Zduriencik insisted on getting a starter back in the trade with the Yankees since he was giving one up. While Noesi has limited major league experience and most of it is out of the pen, the hope has been that he will be a part of the rotation this year. As he has gone about his business this spring, pitching coach Carl Willis has watched carefully. What has he seen?
"A very athletic pitcher," Willis answered. "A guy with four pitches. We are going to determine which is the better of the two, the curve and the slider. We're not going to take one away but we want to make sure he doesn't get in between."
Maybe not so un-noticed afterall.
- Ben.
Lee was interested in winning, not in peacock-style kata demonstrations, and you wonder why (early on) he was so hated for that...
My favorite Lee teaching: put your right side forward, 'cause that's your best side, and you want to do most of your attacking and defending with your best hand and foot.
Do what you do good.
I hear all sorts of stuff.
Jason's handbook gives Paxton's velo as fully the equal of Taijuan Walker's. If THAT is the case, then we have a whole different conversation.
That would be a really, really tough call, which of Noesi's breaking pitches is *going to be* the best.
The slider has really good arm action, and high school break, and he's gotten swingthroughs already. But it's easy to predict that batters will adjust and pulverize it ... it is in essence a slow cut fastball.
The curve has a little better break, but to my eye he telegraphs it.
My guess would be that the key would be to go FB-Changeup about 90% of the time, and just mix the slider a little. His FB game is so good that he can use it as bread-and-butter.
But we'll see what they come up with.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar trained with him and remarked about the fact that for such a little guy, he was a terrible bully.
I dunno whether the hair pulling, eye gouging etc. was cowardly or simply, as the rest of JKD was, ahead of its time.
The cops that I've trained with certainly don't hesitate to go to the hair, groin, knees to the femur, etc., and even just goofing off in the back yard they think it's very funny if they injure you. Exactly the opposite of what you see in the aikido dojo.
Not a lot of honor in it, but hair-pulling and beanballs do convey an advantage. Somebody was talking about Bob Gibson?
I had to put it down because Lee was turning my stomach with illustrated examples of vicious technique. He believes that you can always win a fight. He advocates eye gouging, biting, and testicle crushing if you are overmatched.
Lee's thesis and M.O. is to hurt an opponent as badly as you can, as quickly as possible.
Dude took winning seriously, and had a serious mean streak to go with it.
In the Futures Game, he was 94-96. Literally nothing below 94, most 96.
And it was so EASY. Effortless. He's one smooth lefty for that kind of velo.
For the season it was more 92-96 with some 97s, but from a lefty that might as well be a hundred. He sits 94. He throws a 2-seam fastball which is what I think messes people up when they think that's his 4-seam velocity. His sinker is 89-92 (IIRC), but both pitches are heavy with some movement thanks to his arm slot and action. That's the other reason I'm not too worried about his changeup.
Oh, and if you wanna hear Paxton talk about it himself, Kevin Calabro's podcast is here.
Go to about 22:30 and that's where the Paxton interview starts.
Velocity on 4-seamer: "Can hit 97, between 93-96." He also talks about how, since he was from BC, the Mariners were his boyhood team.
And this is Paxton after his first pro start.
Arsenal: "I have a 4-seam and a 2-seam FB, work off the FB, get ahead then go to the changeup. It's a curveball that I do throw, sometime looks more like a slider when I get on the side of it, but it's more like a slurve... That pitch is my strikeout pitch, guys seem to have a tough time with it."
He's a beast, man...
~G
I think Baseball America had him as the #8 prospect in his own minor league last year.
Siiiiigggggghhhhhhhhh. The definition of groupthink. I'll rank him higher, if and when other people rank him higher...
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That's a 5-year lefthander, a guy with a Kershaw one-two combo, and yet a gorgeous motion, nice K/BB and a college background.
Tell me how many LHP's have had that, the last five years. Price's motion is nowhere near what Paxton's is.
But then, Michael Pineda wasn't recognized until he was riiiiiight on the brink.
"There's no way that the Mariners had Pineda, Paxton, Walker AND Hultzen, and ALL of them belong in the top 10 prospects in the nation. No way. Spread em out - Pineda can be top 10, Walker 11-20, Hultzen 21-30 and Paxton can come in around 50. That looks fair."
There are pitchers I like better than Paxton nationally - there aren't 20 of em. Watching him pitch should be revealing. Apparently the revelations will have to come later.
Besides, Paxton was a 4th round draftpick, ergo he cannot be a better pitcher than #1 selection Cole. That would be a slight on scouting, doncha know.
I'm very curious to see what the Ms do. With our weird schedule to start the year it's not like our #4 and 5 starters are seeing the field for 10 days after Opening Night anyway. My guess would be that Paxton could be up in late April (after we save an extra year of his eligibility) while Hultzen is slotted for June (to avoid Super 2 AND get that extra year).
Of course, I thought that about Pineda - he just forced his way onto the roster by being utterly dominant. Weird things happen with special pitchers.
IMO Paxton, too, is a special pitcher. We'll see if he can control that curve in camp or if they'll wait a few minor league starts to let him hit the ground running.
~G
There are pitchers I like better than Paxton nationally - there aren't 20 of em.
Which?
You'd deal Paxton, 1-for-1, for which minors pitchers? :- ) If what you (he) says about the radar gun is true, I'm not sure I'd deal him for Pineda.
Like you say, the FB might as well be 100. With that motion, control and hammer? How is he not Jon Lester plus?
Heh.
He's astonishing.
Shelby Miller.
I'd consider Bauer, but then we all know I have a huge crush on Bauer.
If you made me dump Hultzen or Paxton, though, I'd keep Paxton. I view Paxton and Walker as equivalent pitchers.
Paxton has EXTREME upside, as much as anyone in the game. And yet I've still heard people this offseason talking about "well, at least he can be a good reliever if this starting thing doesn't work out." Are people afraid of his low-minors walks or something?
The same people who talked about Paxton's command must have hated Clayton Kershaw's. Paxton will not be throwing a ball into a teacup - that's not his game. His pitches will be in the zone at some point, moving through fast and at weird angles. IMO he's gonna be really hard to hit - again, like Kershaw - and I look forward to 4 WAR chunks from James shortly.
Like I said: there are some pitchers I would take over Paxton.
But there aren't any I think outclass him. He's top-shelf ridiculousness, and I'm thrilled to have him.
~G
His Top "100" was published today: http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/2/24/2821479/minor-league-ball-baseb...
And lo and behold:
9) Jesus Montero, C, Seattle Mariners15) Taijuan Walker, RHP, Seattle Mariners25) Danny Hultzen, LHP, Seattle Mariners29) James Paxton, LHP, Seattle Mariners
Seems about right to me. LHP he has ahead of Paxton? Skaggs (23), Pomeranz (21), and Moore (2).
- Ben.
Which technically he does, but once the guy has debuted and scored a long-term contract, I'll say that the $20 mill takes him off of the "potential big leaguer" list :- )
Maybe they should say, 51 IP, or a five-year ML contract, and we'll put you in the big leaguer pile.
I don't consider Jesus Montero a spect either, but now we're into a different discussion...
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Fine. They call Paxton one of a half-dozen or so ML-ready Tyrannosaureses, I'm good.
Has Skaggs, Pomeranz, Hultzen and Paxton at the same level -- a group of four LHP's ahead of everybody except Moore, who is a big leaguer.
That's really all I'd try to argue, too, so ....
If I ever have any quibbles with his work, it's just that: quibbles. No outrage, or spluttered obscenities.
He's far better than the guys that work at The Letters, and his ability to understand the farms of all 30 teams is pretty remarkable.
He has Franklin at #63, btw, and loves Catricala's bat but "the defensive issues are very clear." Which they were.
Catricala's spent all winter working on his footwork and is as comfortable at 3B as he's ever been, but is also willing and able to play the OF. BTW, fun line:
Since signing, Catricala has played 327 games – and hit .322.
Yes, the Mariners noticed.
Add in his 50 doubles a season, increasing HR power, perfectly reasonable K and walk totals, and age? He can hit, and the ball really does "jump off his bat" as Wedge says.
His defense really is the key. If his bat will play at a corner - and I think it will - then you'd prefer that corner to be the hot one, all things considered. He'll have to prove it this year though, or get moved off to LF or 1B.
He'll still have value there, but at 3rd...wow.
I'm pulling for him either way.
~G
John Sickels, "BATTLE OF THE TAIS: Jameson Taillon vs. Taijuan Walker Prospect Smackdown"