I'm taking Franklin off the list of possible chits, but I think I would let Walker go in combo with others, maybe, perhaps, possibly. I have a suspicion that Trayvon and Chiang might be on that list.
Felix, Pineda, Gonzales, Vargas, Beaven...Hultzen. Powerful stuff.
I wonder if this could be a starter-trade. We get Gonzales and we ship one of the arms elsewhere. Vargas and something pretty brings us what?
Looks like lots of teams are sniffing at the Gonzales trough. M's could be a longshot here.
I always thought that Sid Fernandez looked like the least athletic guy on the field. Gonzales looks way better than that.
moe
..................
Q. Why would the Mariners want to deal, say, Taijuan Walker or James Paxton (in March) for Gonzalez, considering that those guys could be better than him anyway?
A. At such time as a Dustin Ackley proves it in the big leagues, even for a month or two, his value doubles.
The M's minor leaguers are as good as it gets. But they haven't jumped over the hurdle that Gio Gonzalez has.
The MID scenario: even if Gio doesn't get any better, he gives you 3.5 cheap WAR. There are a few guys who don't.
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Q. What's the worst thing about Gio?
A. Taro ain't going to like the way he carries his arm at the top.
The DWN scenario for Gio is for him to get injured. That's all. He already is a very good starting pitcher and he is going to get better.
... note, however, that Gio's velocity is up. He has gained velo steadily throughout his career, and he was as strong as a horse in August-September 2011.
The lower the through-slot, the better. Consider Randy Johnson's health. Human beings are designed to throw, sidearm.
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Q. What's the best thing about Gio?
A. He's one or two mechanical plateaus away from being a healthy Erik Bedard. Lead the league in K rate, despite plentiful groundballs, left hand with velocity, the whole nine yards. It's just flat fun to watch him pitch.
Gio's already at, is already delivering, 3.5 WAR per season right now, in his embryonic stages. He's a sneeze away from delivering 6.0 per year, in exactly the way Jon Lester did.
I don't notice that the El Sids and Erikkk's become the best pitcher in the league. But the UP is that settle in very comfortably at 5+ WAR ... prorated, 200 IP.
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Q. What about the changeup?
A. Throws it 9% of the time and gets splattered when he does.
Lose the changeup, kid. The rest of your game will come around all the quicker. Did El Sid throw one? Does Erikkk? Did Randy Johnson?
Dr. D would be seriously excited about Gio Gonzalez coming to Safeco and ditching the changeup. I'd be counting my 6 WAR and laughing all the way to the bank.
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Q. You'd give a "Dan Haren type package"? Ouch.
A. If you could exclude the Big Three in the minors, give Beane his choice of (say) Nick Franklin, Jose Campos, Vinnie Catricala, etc etc., I'd be all over it.
Beane is notorious for, and very good at, selecting 4-5 minor leaguers that the fans don't know about. If he took, say, Campos and Franklin as the hyped picks, and (say) Erasmo, Forrest Snow, and Chiang as the "filler," fans would bury Beane in crumpled Dixie cups. But he'd be laughing all the way to the arbitration bank, as usual.
See, you're talking about a 5-WAR player who doesn't burn your payroll stash. You want to dance with a cheap impact player, you gotta pay the man blowin' sax. C'mon. You're talking about adding a 4-5 win guy and then still doing everything else you were gonna do, also. This is a bonus addition. Taro said something about getting drastic, neh? Here are his bonus 5 WAR.
Other than the Prince derby, this is the one rumor that has gotten me enthused. Objectively speaking, I'd rather see a Gio trade even than the Darvish fantasy. With Gio you could spend money elsewhere.
........
If Taijuan were the dealbreaker, hmmmmmmmm. Agonizing choice. I'd lean toward. ... whattayou think?
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BABVA,
Dr D
Comments
See, Gio is what I want Paxton to be a couple of years from now. If you're trading Paxton + for Gio then it's because you need to move up the timetable and you're willing to pay extra Trayvon-sized pieces to make it happen.
Why do you move up a timetable? To win in the current Felix window, and perhaps to convince a monstrous FA to sign with you in the lonely and win-starved Northwest.
Here’s what the idea of trading fungible assets - even great ones – to add another ace to the staff in anticipation of a Fielder signing to anchor the lineup does to me. It’s Bill Simmons talking about Chris-Paul-to-the-Clippers, but it holds true across sports.
The best thing about following sports? When the stars align and your team wins a championship. The second-best thing? Anticipation. Having a quality team, knowing it's headed someplace, dreaming about the possibilities. Staring at the schedule, circling games, knowing that something like 50 of your next 150 nights are going to be a blast. Glancing at the clock at 3:30 in the afternoon and saying, "Four more hours." Standing in front of your seat 20 minutes before tipoff, watching warm-ups, feeling that buzz, feeling those goose bumps slowly form on your arms.
That's the gift of the Chris Paul trade. And if it comes with a shelf life, so be it.
That’s not why you would reach on a decent player and overpay him…but it’s why you build the team and then lay down the bet on a phenomenal player. To give the games meaning. To give your fans daily excitement about their team and its chances. We get 162 games x however-many-years to believe.
I get it if Sandy and others don’t think the team is properly built yet, and we can’t lay that bet. Lots of folks believe we don’t have the foundational talent yet to support such an acquisition.
If there is some reason that a rotation fronted by The King, Pineda, Gio AND Hultzen, with a lineup built around The Prince, Ackley, Carp and Smoak can’t even compete for a wildcard, I’d like to know it. Too many holes? I don’t see too many holes, I guess. Last year’s black holes aren’t playing this year, or if they are (Guti) then their leashes should be short. Don't believe in the hitters? I get that...but I am a believer in them.
Can you imagine getting the Ms in the playoffs with that rotation? Who cares who starts the 1-game playoff if we just make the 2nd wildcard? You’re telling me Pineda can’t get it done if Felix had to pitch us in? As an opposing team, I would detest working all year to get a high playoff seed only to be staring down the aces barrel of the Ms and hoping that Fielder doesn’t have any late-game heroics to send my “better team” packing.
Some owners are in it for title runs, others for pure profit.
As a fan, I’m in it for the goose bumps...and a Fielder/Gio offseason would be a way to bring them to me, big-time.
~G
I thought the whole idea of trading Fister was to clear up some spots in the rotation for the specs? We're going to trade away the low-risk Fister for a high-risk Gio + impact prospects?
Doubt it happens anyways given the Ms needs. Z may just be testing the waters to see if he can nab Gio for cheap like Lee.
Well, you gotta figure out your internal odds on Walker. Just my own gut:
Ace (top-5 AL) - 5%
TOR (#1 or #2 starter on most clubs) - 15%
#3 or #4 Solid Starter - 20%
Fringe Pitcher - 20%
Washout - 25%
Injured, never makes it - 15%
To me, those are probably generous. A 1/5 chance to be an impact starter, a 2/5 chance to be MOR or better on a good staff. Also a 2/5 chance to never pitch in the majors.
As much as I love the tremendous upside that Walker is, Gio has only one step to go to already be the 1/5 impact guy that we project and hope for Walker to be. It could be that Gio's injury odds may be higher, but I would defer that to the guys that know a lot more than I do.
Benihana can probably analogize this to the net-present value concept more quickly and eloqenlty than I could, but that's how I would approach it. Gio's NPV, as measured in performance is MUCH higher. Of course that could change drastically with time if there are no hiccups with Walker's development and maybe that's the way Beane would want to play it. Either way, it all rests with each GM's internal odds in each category.
I don't like the Fister trade, didn't really from the start. The pieces we got back can fill spots but not dominate. Maybe F-Mart will change my opinion on that if he turns into Adam Jones at 3B and really is the future there filling a black hole with plus production.
That said, it may be that Jack planned to take extra time and let the kids blossom more, that he was not expecting to have funds freed up for Fielder, whatever, hence the Fister trade.
But if Fielder is still there and available with you as one of two major suitors, the Angels just made a major in-your-face move (or two) and the committee has now authorized you to open up both barrels (and the checkbook) on the competition?
Plans change as circumstances do. No plan survives first engagement, right? Better be agile enough to change directions when warranted.
I still think we'll be on a stay-the-course, small-move offseason.
But if Gio and Fielder are gettable, and the latter requires the former, then I could find that to be a fascinating solution to our Felix Window problem.
~G
Then it's a no-brainer to lead with Taijuan in a Gio package. And they may not be far off. We fans tend to wayyyyy over-value 18-year-old pheenoms like Walker.
And the package may need to be along the lines of the Lee/Smoak deal ...
Latest is that Beane wants a future 3B. Maybe he'd take two of Liddi, Seager, Catricala or Martinez? :- )
If I'm Jack, I'm paying $1.20 on the dollar on this one... K's, GB, and LHP in Safeco...
Gio >> Erikkk >>>> El Sid, in terms of all-around athleticism. Hadn't thought about that. Just a superior body.
That's exactly what Gio is giving you, albeit in a slightly different style. I'm guessing that the grandmasters on Wall Street pay a premium to trade a 40% chance of success for a 95% chance?
Love the enthusiasm G. The M's might be one of seven suitors, or nothing more than a rumor, but here's hoping this one gains traction. Prince and Gio would change the game 'round town.
You mean because of the moderate 'inverted W'?
Respect the point of view, but even if I wanted to pass on Michael Pineda and Gio Gonzalez because of this theory ... Gio comes through with a sidearm, low-stress arm slot. (Pineda does too, to a lesser extent.)
Am sure that if the M's wound up finalists, we'd wind up talking about this some. Mark me down as not concerned. Few pitchers in baseball looked healthier than Gio, 2H 2011.
Did somebody say we had to give up Pineda to get Gio? :- )
None of our Big Four in the minors are where Doug Fister was at: top-15 SP in the American League, with seven different kinds of upside from there.
A bit confused by this comparison. You deal a Taijuan for Gio, precisely to remove risk and cash in on a sure thing, right?
to start TOR-potential prospects. taro's just saying that trading Fister to get F-Mart, an OF and a couple pitchers, then moving F-Mart, an OF and a couple of pitchers (say) for Gio is just spining your wheels.
You already HAD the cheap top-15 starting pitcher. Why jump through hoops to ditch him just to go get another one? It sort of invalidates whatever reasons you had for trading Fister in the first place.
It's the long way around the block, I agree, but it's the destination that I care about.
Yes, you would trade Taijuan for Gio in order to get immediate production from someone who's already jumped through most of the hoops on the way to being an impact arm. But Fister had already done that, hence the re-tread that getting Gio feels like.
But this would make the net of the two trades (assuming Fister = Gio):
Plus:
+ Furbush (ML bullpenner/#5 starter)
+ Ruffin (ML set up man)
+ Wells (ML platoon OF at worst)
+ F-Mart (good minor league hitting prospect in upper minors)
Minus:
- Paxton or Taijuan (minor leaguers still a couple of years away from impact)
- very good minor league bat in upper minors (Franklin, Catricala, F-Mart)
- minor league pen arm (think Pryor)
- misc hitter (Jabari Blash type)
F-Mart doesn't really count if he goes out - he's not a loss since you transfer him from the Tigers to the A's. He doesn't come out of your system. He's a net zero, and he's still in your system to offset the loss of a Franklin/Catricala type who would go.
But it means you moved minor league talent for major league talent basically across the board. You're moving up the timeline and paying a premium to compete in 2012 and 2013 instead of 2014 or post-Felix. Yes, the combination of Fister + (players that would go in Gio trade) might be better than Gio + (players obtained in Fister trade).
But the Fister trade was made to accelerate the process of building a competitive major league club and to fill multiple holes.
Rolling some of that minor league excess that we've obtained in order to get back Gio is still in line with that thinking, because Gio is ready NOW.
How much is it worth to you to sneak in a couple of pennant races in the next 3 years?
~G
From our standpoint on SSI ya. From their standpoint - they didn't believe in Fister.
Gio for Doug Fister has some rationale objectively speaking, too. Doogie is defying gravity to a certain extent; Gio is a natural ace.
But yeah. I see what you're getting at. Call it a chance to right a wrong, as it were :)
Just interrupting for a moment.
Can folks remind me why Chance Ruffin is so underwhelming?
He was picked almost right after Taijuan Walker (48th to Tai's 43rd). I assume that he was on their radar for that 43rd pick.
He jumps right into AA and puts up 11.4 K/9, then goes to AAA and puts up 10.4 K/9, and his minors ERA is 2.03.
This after a 13.5 K/9 in the Big 12 (Texas) and a 1.11 ERA and 0.94 WHIP there.
OK, so he's a reliever. Seems like teams pay money for relivers, and sometimes give up Jason Vargas, Mike Carp, Mikel Cleto, Zeke Carrera and more to obtain relievers.
So the guys who said "we choose Ackley" "we choose Franklin" "we choose Seager" "we choose Catricala" "we choose Walker" "we choose Paxton" "we choose Hultzen" -- they say "we choose Ruffin" and we just say "oh he's a nothing set-up guy"?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
I think 3B is the place to for trade bait, which is why I'm not including Franklin (see below).
Seager (or Liddi) and Cat...and Walker. I think I might go down that road.
I'm more than happy right now to turn 3B over to Seager or Liddi (with Franklin in the wings) to get Gio.
moe
And you almost NEVER get a marquee guy there.
So that makes people feel like he's a throw-in on the deal.
Chance Ruffin is a Real Pitcher, and has as much chance (ha) of being our closer next year as Wilhelmsen. He's an absolutely valid and important piece of the deal.
But he came much later, without fanfare, so it feels weird to trumpet him as a major piece of the trade. Hopefully we can sound some trumpets for him this year - I think he'll help the pen a bunch.
~G
PRO: His slider cracks hard and it is -12 mph off his fastball, meaning that it "moves" about 2 feet toward the pitcher as the batter swings. His slider is a legit Nellie-style weapon.
CON: He leans back in the windup, never a good thing, his front foot does a contrived pretzel and his drive down the CL is ... not.
It's easy to see what the M's liked, with that scary RH breaking ball that Ruffin never seems to hang. I was surprised to see him so shaky as to his consistency.
Big upside, lot of work to do, is a Josh Lueke Second Chance. My $0.01.
I don't really see the inverted W/timing issue (maybe slightly -would need slow-mo), but poor job of leveraging his lower body and the followthrough.. Hes not a train wreck, but as part of the strategy of building a team you don't want to commit the critical parts of your plan in high-risk assets IMO.
He might last 4 good years.. but Pineda, Hultzen, Paxton, and then Gio on top of that? The core part of your plan is too high risk. You're already banking on a dice roll as is.
The fact that you shipped out your low-risk TOR SP and more minor league currency on top of that would make it a pretty questionable strategic move IMO.
Still, I don't think thats happening here.. My guess is Z is seeing if he can nab Gio for quantity as opposed to quality if the market doesn't develop.
because Latos just brought in a haul for the Padres.
Grandal, Alonso, Volquez and Boxberger. Latos is a very good pitcher but that is an impressive haul.