Lonnie of MC finally taught me enough Skype to get a podcast together. :- )
We know that few are gullible enough to believe in the existence of Sasquatch, crop circles, or Dr. D, so here is a Mariner Central thread and a podcast link with clear evidence to the contrary. As to the crop circles, at least.
In the first 10 minutes, a Steve Delabar POTD lurks, albeit in audio form.
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Lest you (sensibly) categorize the audio report as one more SSI overreaction ... we did hear on Geoff Baker's show, after-the-fact, that the Mariners are giddy over both Delabar and Wilhelmsen's "knockout stuff."
Delebar, say the M's via Baker, hasn't begun to scratch the surface of what he can be -- an upper-90's pitcher with a wipeout offspeed pitch and no ceiling that is yet established. Tom Wilhelmsen is similarly jelling into celebrity status internally there.
Quite amazing that both of them should be Dennis Quaid "The Rookie" stories as well. Maybe karma is going to script the M's for 1 year on, 9 years off throughout eternity?
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Steve Delabar's offspeed pitch is unique in baseball, at least as far as I've ever seen. F/X categorizes it as a curve ball because it drops as much as a power 12-6 curve ... but! Rather than breaking gloveside, it breaks armside. What the hey do you call that?! A super-scroogie?
F/X went slightly nuts, giving the pitch -6 horizontal break in some spots and +6 in others. We checked the GameDay animation, from several angles, to verify the bizarre trajectory of this pitch. Sure enough, Delbar's "thang" swerves in there, breaking 5" armside like a changeup/fastball, but dropping 12-18" relative to a fastball (and 10" relative to a change, and 6" relative to Brandon League's split).
This was what DiceK's gyroball was supposed to be. Steve Delabar throws it. He may throw it like with his thumb or something, but that's the trajectory people wanted.
And Delabar's miracle pitch isn't the end of the story; his heater is a subject unto itself.
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Ah, well, teasers aside, Lonnie's podcast is open for bidness. :- ) Lonnie gave us A DIRECT MP3 LINK HERE but don't hesitate to go over to Mariner Central and bury him in crumpled Dixie cups for the slumming.
If popularity is as we expect, this will hopefully be the last Bigfoot sighting. If the attendance justifies, though, Lonnie's ready for regular underground SSI podcasts. Hey, we were meaning to tech up and convert this shtick to Dragon audio, anyway...
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=== HIGH SCHOOL GYROBALL, Dept. ===
In the meantime, you can help poor Dr. D run an All Points Bulletin (APB) for any ML pitch that breaks like Delabar's. Find a pitch that (1) Breaks down relative to vacuum -- meaning that it has forward spin -- and (2) breaks armside.
How do you even do that? ... I mean, somebody must do it, and poor Dr. D just hasn't noticed, but how would Delabar grip and release a pitch so that it has spin towards the 3B dugout?
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Cheers,
Jeff
...that I greatly enjoyed your podcast with Lonnie...the two of you worked well together and I'm hoping there'll be more of that. You were actually very smooth in your delivery...had the sound of deep personal confidence. You should do some play by play some day...maybe that's your third calling? :)
I always though that a screwball was supposed to knuckle like a knuckle curve but with armside run. Was I wrong? Because that is precisely what this pitch sounds like. There's nothing new in baseball anymore...someone has to have thrown the same pitch that Delabar throws. My best guess would be Sandy Koufax.
Agree: there's no way this is the first time the pitch has been thrown. It's just the first time I've noticed it. :- )
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The 'knuckle curve' is just a standard 12-6 curve thrown with the index finger off the ball, and a karate-chop motion that gives forward spin. It breaks gloveside a little bit, and down.
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Screwballs do break armside, but I don't remember any that dive down relative to vacuum -- that is, with forward spin on them.
But yeah. I'm guessing that the best screwballs in ML history, such as Fernando's, probably moved about like Delabar's "High School Gyroball" moves. Am not trying to hype Delabar. Am just describing the F/X situation.
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Sandy is documented to have thrown a standard (though awesome) 12-6 curve -- breaks gloveside a bit, and down.
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Did anybody check out the GameDay animation from Sept. 11 or 14? ... you can rotate the camera perspective to see the trajectory of Delabar's "High School Gyroball."
Delabar's gyroball* hasn't even been important in his first two outings. He has butchered them with a Morrow-type fastball.
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Yet another mystery emerges. How did this guy walk so many hitters in the minors? Lincecum / Pac-12 syndrome? Maybe he's been evolving during the year?
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What an info-taining story. Delabar is one of the craziest short-term phenomena that I've seen splash on the Mariner scene. Ever.
A RHP'ers 12-6 curve that breaks 5-6 inches in to RHB's is the atom bomb of offspeed pitches. How the heck does a RH batter ever get the handle in and down onto such a pitch?
Sheeeeesh. Wave white flags at that one.
Scroogies? I don't remember Marshall's diving into the dirt like that. McGraw's, IIRC, dived a bit more. But it may have seemed that way to me simple because he threw it from the other side. McGraw was nails, also a complete screwball himself, but a LHP's scroogie would seem to have less advantage than a righties.
So Delabar is throwing a Blyleven-ish curve with Marshall-like horizontal movement.......pray for rain.
Doc, what were the speeds that he FB'ed, curved and "thanged' at?
Another mystery is the knock on Wilhelmsen as being "wild."
He's walked 13 in 28 big league innings.....OK, that's a bit high (about the walk rate of N. Ryan over his career, btw).
But he only walked 80 in 238 MiLB innings.
And he only threw in 57 minor league games.
Considering the sporatic appearances he was making, his control seems to me just fine.
I have no concern about it. With his silky move to the plate he'll have no problem improving.
And, of course, there is the philosophy that for a guy that throws a way easy 97-98, a touch of wildness may not be a real bad thing.
One way to get the ball to move like that is to hold the ball along the seams with the index finger and middle finger, allowing the tip of the thumb to rest on the seam. As you get to release of the ball, twist your wrist so that your palm is facing yourself and allow the ball to basically roll off of your index finger. When done properly, it should drop and run armside. You'll want to snap it off just like a curveball. At least, that's how I've done it.
It may not be the way Delebar does, but it's truly a nintendo pitch. Just tell your catching partner in advance, the movement will catch them offguard otherwise.
Very excited to listen to this. I had spoken to Lonnie earlier and was asking him for some Dr. D on his podcast and he said that you were actually doing one. Mark me down for a regular listener.
Hey Doc, love the podcast! Very cool to put a voice to the online persona. Would love to hear more in the future.
As an aside, but somewhat related to the comments above, I just this morning came across a great video of Koufax. Lots of great old footage pieced together, slow-mo and from the catcher's perspective. Here's the link: http://vimeo.com/5283804
I was wondering whether Delabar walks so many because batters just give up on his offspeed pitch and pepper swing at things that look straight enough. If the screwball of his breaks down that hard...then perhaps he bounces it most of the time when he's not razor sharp and his fastball location isn't fine enough to make up for it?
7+ BB/9 in the minors doesn't suggest that he owns the skill of repeating his pitches. But maybe that is evolving now.
Gamelog here.
8/8 0.2 IP, 1 K, 2 BB
7/31 1.0 IP, 1 K, 3 BB
7/10 1.1 IP, 0 K, 5 BB
6/25 0.2 IP, 0 K, 2 BB
And he had 11 BB in his first 9 appearances, when he was still in Dennis-Quaid-science-teacher mode.
Conversely, lots of days with multiple Ks and no BBs.
And: great stuff in the podcast, guys!
... if you're minded to give any info about where you pitched, and your results with that, would love to hear it... if not, can certainly understand ...
Ever notice any ML pitchers throwing it?
Great job Lonnie! Next time you should talk Doc into getting into a webcam, because until now, when I think of Doctor Detecto I think of Christopher Lloyd
Which is not so far off ... :- ) The only picture of me in the house right now is this one, goofing off with the kiddies in a high school vs seniors grudge match...
No, that's not Dr. D's mobile home in the back, as you might reasonably assume ... we traveled to the nearest clean acre of grass...
If you've been missing Matt Hasselbeck, now you have somebody to fill the hole in your sports heart. I can take over for him, at least in the Supercuts salon.
At the end of the year here, that guy we saw against KC and NYY didn't look AT ALL like a pitcher who'd have BB issues...
Well, granted, once every 10-20 pitches he spikes a fastball into somebody's foot :- )
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Baker said that they're talking about sending him to winter ball to groove in the release point.
IIRC, 95 avg on the FB and 82-84 on the high school gyroball. So, slider speed, as opposed to change-curve speed 77 or splitfinger speed 87. It acts as a nice 10-12 mph changeup but with a change-curve shape.
Yyyyyyeah.
-jemanji mobile
As far as the movement goes, whenever I try to throw a screwball with a whiffle ball I get the exact movement you are describing. Lots of vertical drop with a little bit of armside break.
I've tried and tried to get the break to increase the horizontal movement and decrease the vertical, but I can't.
Strangely, the closest major league pitch to it that I can remember was Felix's swerveball from the Boston near-perfect game. Although his was more of a fastball that a breaking pitch. Derek Lowe also throws that same pitch, but again his is more of a fastball.
I enjoyed finally getting back into town and listening to the two you opening up the mail and emails. THANKS!
And you all know the Huskies would have beat the Canes! I was at the game two years later when they did beat UM in Miami with several buddies who bled orange. The last word can be quite fun at times!
Seriously, thanks to both of you. Fun with great insights!
The Minnesota accent does great violence to the Ukrainian Transylvania mad baseball doctor persona. While Minnesota is cool, and known for icefishing and folkstyle wrestling, it isn't known for the breeding of evil scientists. *
The readers were expecting someone who was a cross between Nikolai Tesla and Dracula, or any of those old timey goth dudes.
Still, I won't complain too much. It was a good podcast.
1*St. Paul is famously the home of the 3M company, which employs many scientists, but it isn't known for producing much in the way of evil scientists, or dangerous product. Stickynotes, the most famous of 3M products, are neither evil, nor dangerous.
If you guys ever see anybody guesting offsite, signing his name Tesla, that'll be Dr. D in a hoodie and glasses...
Always wondered what my accent is. Am going to have to start listening to Minnesotans, if I ever meet one.
Hey, if Mojician, Dr. K and guys like that are checking out the audio shtick, we may have to ramp it up here. I thought the internet was kind of '90's but maybe it has a future.
muchas gracias very much :- )
Lonnie actually threw me for a loop ... was better at keying the Q-and-A than most the guys I've worked with on radio, public speeches etc ... was kind of expecting a fly-by-night 'net podcast and here came Lonnie with 97 mph strike one, strike two.
In the immortal words of Jack Parkman ... might have to get serious next time ;- )
Threw 18 fastballs in 21 pitches, getting out of an inherited jam in the 8th but losing in the 9th on a couple of squeezed BB's and a game-winning double.
Of the three offspeed pitches, all had armside run and real good sink, though none actually had the forward spin and curve-break of his previous outings.
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As the M's have emphasized, Delabar is just getting started, so is not going to enjoy a "monotonic" run of good results, but it's interesting that Wedge called on Mr. High School Teacher in the game situation.
A splitter.
Based on the y/z break and speed differential, it sounds like Delabar's "mysterious" breaking ball is a pretty nasty splitter. If pitch/fx is giving it multiple classifications (curve, slider, change) it's probably the small sample size combined with inconsistent grip/release/pronation.
But am having trouble picturing how you get the overspin from a split-finger grip.
Did you see Chadski's comment above, Choo?
A textbook splitter mimics the spin of a 2-seamer or standard change-up but with fewer revolutions, depending how wide the two fingers are spread. Some pitchers apply a little flick with the middle finger upon release to give it a little cut or more vertical dive action.
A classic forkball, on the other hand, is wedged between the two fingers (Delabar has very long hands and fingers) but the primary separator between it and a splitter is the spin. There are two ways to deploy a classic forkball. One way is to let it knuckle without much spin. The other way (and the easier of the two to control) is to push or "squirt" the ball out using the thumb as a guide upon release. This is what gives the pitch topspin, the angle of which depends on where pressure is applied by the thumb. Not many players in the modern era throw a true forkball. It's tough to master and requires a giant hand.
Two video clips of Delabar at mlb.com ("debut" and "first win" I think) show him throwing the 86 mph pitch. It's too grainy for me to see details of his fingers, but the pitch gets good drop and his hand is behind the ball. There is no cupping of the wrist to suggest it's some sort of inverted power curve. The human body doesn't work that way . . . at least not more than once.
I can't argue with any of that.
Gay-lerd Perry used to talk about "squirting" the ball out, like the jaws of an alligator snapping at something, to create forward spin. And, yeah, watching Delabar I don't see any wrist break a la the 12-6 curve.
Slap me silly, you're probably right. Wonder if Baker is going to ask Delabar about his grip this March.