Felix and Pineda - Peace and Violence

Q.  Does Pineda's timing lag?

A.  SSI puts a lot of credence into the "high elbow" factor that national blogs talk about so much.

But it doesn't put much credence into the claim that one pitcher's timing is "correct" and another's "incorrect."  The pundits that I have seen, nationally, don't seem to have a good handle on the subject.

.

Q.  In a nutshell, what is SSI's opinion on "timing"?

A.  Simply that some athletes -- golfers, pitchers, hitters -- "wind the spring tighter" than others, and that this often deceives the observer into thinking that the athlete is "late" to pull the arm through.

To be sure, a pitcher's release point can be early or late.  This is reflected in the location of the ball in the strike zone, not in DL time.

.

Q.  What is healthy timing?

A.  Water flows downhill, grasshopper.  :- )  In its path of least resistance.

If, playing long toss, Tim Lincecum can launch a baseball 300 feet from position A, but he can launch it 325 feet from position B .... which position is the natural one for his body? 

The "correct" position was the one from which leverage max'ed.  His body wasn't getting in its own way, when he threw it 325 feet.   His body was getting in its own way, when he lost 25 feet on his throw.

...............

It's very tough for me to watch a pitcher scream a baseball at a catcher at -- literally -- 100 mph, and then say his timing was bad.  Something in that human sports motion was very, very right.

Tiger Woods gets (got) extra length on his drive precisely because his pullthrough was "late."  Ichiro's bat release is "late" in terms of his wrist angle.  Michael Pineda's throughstroke is "late" because it's building torque longer.

.

Q.  For example?

A.  Check out these comparative photos:

Watch a slo-mo of Felix -- say, Lonnie's -- and you'll see that his left foot, and leg, swing through very easily and smoothly.  It's beautiful to watch, like watching Katarina Witt glide backwards through a long circle on ice.

.

Michael Pineda's left foot and leg, by contrast, have vicious intent:

n style="font-size: small;">:- )

........

Max effort doesn't mean you're on a 50-inning countdown to the DL.  It probably does mean that you're not going to pitch for 20 years, like Felix is.

My basic thought with Pineda would be, six years and out, Billy Beane style.  That thought could be wrong.

.

Cheers,

Dr D

Comments

1
Taro's picture

Timing, from what I've read from O'Leary/Boddy, just refers to whether or not the pitching arm is set vertical right before the point of max effort. Inverted W can often lead to bad timing, but not always. Pineda has bad timing by this defintion, but not terrible.
An elevated elbow, which is Pineda's main issue IMO, usually leads to shoulder injuries (labrum/rotator cuff) more often.
Again, I'm FAR from an expert, but these guys generally just don't stay healthy.Does Pineda have two years before he starts breaking down? 4? 7?Why gamble?
I'd rather just swap the guy for a position player of similar value.
 

2

whether or not the pitching arm is set vertical right before the point of max effort.

'Vertical' meaning up-and-down?  Relative to the ground? ... um...
Lot of neat stuff at The Pitching Mechanic, although don't know why O'Leary analyzes the so-called "rushing" phenomenon the way he does...
Also not sure where at The Pitching Mechanic we get the idea of 'set vertical' ... you could 'splain the "set vertical" phrase, will respond...

3
Taro's picture

I'm not sure how to say it.. You want the forearm set in the loading position at 90 degrees upward. Worst case scenario is the forearm pointing downwards with inverted W motion, but that is rare. Most guy with the inverted W are late, but somewhere in between right before footstrike. Pineda isn't as bad as someone like Mark Prior or Jeremy Bonderman in that sense. I think even Morrow was a bit worse at this.
Pineda does have a very elevated elbow though, so I'd concerned about damaging the shoulder.. The last picture in particular is concerning. Thats the moment of max effort and Pineda's elbow is too high.

4
M-Pops's picture

Big dudes with big, short-armed, shoulder intensive fastballs. Z dominated almost immediately after securing a rotation spot, without the control ratio that Pineda has.
Love the call for a Bean-esque flip job after MP's first year of arb. What would you give for a more emotionally stable Zambrano, with better command?

5
M-Pops's picture

What other pitchers cock their wrist like Pineda on their backstroke? It is pronounced in Rich Harden's delivery, for example, but is otherwise pretty rare, right?

6
Taro's picture

Zito has it. I think Lincecum too.
Generally its considered bad since it creates tension in the forearm early in the motion and can lead to bad timing. You prefer not to have it, but I'm not sure its a big deal unless it leads to those timing problems.

7
Taro's picture

Zambrano doesn't have an elevated elbow though and he doesn't have the timing issue either. He does have a pretty crappy followthrough though. Pineda's followthrough is pretty good.

8

I've previously discribed Bedard as a guy whose career path "feels" like a max effort pitcher, (not in speed, but in spin), which is why he's joined the million mile club on DL Airlines. Wonder if there's any similar feel for max effort in his video?
Of course, max-spin vs. max POWER I view as different animals. But, still if you're approaching 'breaking point' routinely, on a day when your muscles haven't repaired 100% from the last outing ... (snap) ... and not a Legally Blonde kind.

Add comment

Filtered HTML

  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <blockquote> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd><p><br>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.

Plain text

  • No HTML tags allowed.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.

shout_filter

  • Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <cite> <blockquote> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd>
  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
  • Web page addresses and e-mail addresses turn into links automatically.