Olivo's career average WAR per 450 PAs is 1.6. Hes ok if the park doesn't kill him, but its pretty much a stop-gap type as opposed to a well above-average/impact Gut/Nishoka type.
.346 BABIP last season (.302 career), so that'll regress pretty hard. His high WAR last season wasn't a reflection of true talent level.
You have to figure Safeco hurts him a little, but assuming it doesn't cripple him I'd guess he hits around. .235/.270/.410.
Technically, Olivo is a slight bargain at that price but I'm not wild about handing millions to 1+WAR type players. Its probably not a disaster deal, but its definetly not a long-term fix and the extra year makes it risky.
Q. OK, he's tough, he brings MLB(TM) game behind the plate and he'll punish some mistakes.
But at 32, is Olivo going to hit the wall as a catcher?
A. Olivo has a ton of partial seasons, notably the ones with the Mariners...
He's got 820 games total: that's five seasons. Wear-and-tear is no issue, end of story, though age-32 bat speed might conceivably be.
.
Q. What if Olivo does crash-and-burn as a Mariner?
A. Then he probably gives the Mariners what they project from Moore and Johnson -- a 70 OPS+ catcher not giving them much. At $3M per, there isn't any significant downside here.
.
Q. What if Moore emerges?
A. The 2011-12 Mariners have two feasible scenarios:
- 110 games of Olivo at 90 OPS+ ... 50 games of Moore at 70 OPS+
- 110 games of Moore at 110 OPS+ ... 50 games of Olivo at 90 OPS+
First one's cool. Second one is a legit championship-level catching scenario.
.
Q. OK, how do the Mariners maximize Olivo's value?
A. Olivo has the slider-speed bat.
He wears out LH'ers. You give him an 89 fastball and he'll go 458 feet.
Give him his days off against young, wild flame throwers. You don't want him in there doing the Danny Corteses of the game a favor, swinging at their 96 fastballs outside the strike zone.
................
Interestingly, Olivo has like a .570 career SLG, if I recall correctly, as a DH. There might be somethng to that. I like finding catchers who thump when their legs aren't stiff.
Would be quite a platoon partner with Cust, mayhaps. If Moore jells, Olivo could go 60 games at catcher and another 50 at DH, or something.
.
Q. Exec Sum?
A. Let's wrap this up another way:
- Adam Moore 2010: -16 batting runs
- Rob Johnson: -9 batting runs
- Josh Bard: -4 batting runs
- Miguel Olivo: League average (-2 runs 2009; +1 runs 2008 .. 400 PA both years)
In a full season, Olivo's saving you what, 20-30 runs with the bat.
Defensively, Olivo was worth a demonstrated +17 runs just with his arm.
.
Q. 2011 projection in Safeco?
A. .239 AVG, .290 OBP, .450 SLG based on 20 homers and 25 doubles.
An 85-90 OPS+, an excellent defensive catcher on every level. A +20 or +25 runs player, in the middle of the field, playing for peanuts. A good year's time for Adam Moore to get his bearings.
That's a plus 20, 25 runs as opposed to another -10 or -20 runs that they might have had without him -- as they in fact had in 2009.
.
As Blengino preaches, and as we all know, it should be easy to replace a terrible player with a decent one, and get 30-40 runs better.
The M's showed us just how easy it can be.
.
B'lee Dat,
Dr D
Comments
Olivo isn't a premium defender (besides game-calling which can't be measured right now).
Hes above-average in CS%. 35% career vs a 28% average at that position. But hes also well below-average in PBs (and WPs as a result).
The overall result is a defender that is roughly around league-average. He doesn't figure to gain any runs there unless you project him to continue his 45 CS% of last year.
If Olivo plays league average defense and offense, then he's a score. We've just seen so many hitters die in Safeco, and Olivo's batting history here wasn't so good (home/road splits notwithstanding). I'm assuming a sub-80 OPS+ from him.
You gotta believe he will be at least league-average defense-wise. Shuts down the run game, and he caught the Cy Young winner in 2009.
Personality wise, you paint a picture of a tougher guy than I deemed him. I always considered Olivo one of the real good guys in baseball though. I was pulling for him when he was with the M's big time. IIRC, he has a bunch of kids that he loves to death, so a devoted family man, and he always seemed appreciative, honest... I dunno, it just felt like he spoke from the heart more than 99% of the other guys you hear in interviews. So that stuck with me back then.
The other thing I thought about, is at his salary and with his history, he's probably a pretty tradable commodity. Great attitude, veteran but not too old, history of hitting decently, a little pop. If one of the young kids blows up, Olivo is liquid.
At 29, Olivo's hitting went way up. PX went from 100 to 150 and stayed there.
Can't use career data when a guy establishes a plateau and stays at it for 3 years, right?
The 17 runs diff between Olivo and the M's '10 catchers isn't compensated for by the PB's.
At 35% career -- or 40% the last 3 years! -- the running game is a net loss for the offense. Olivo simply detonates the SB game. It's suicide to run with him behind the plate.
He's got 24 passed balls the last 3 years combined, which has got to be middle-of-the-pack. We're taking a minor consideration here -- a few PB's and WP's away from league average, at 0.27 runs each -- and claiming that it cancels out a huge strength?
Different guy now, ya.
.................
Remember, last year our catchers were 40s, 50s and 60s in terms of OPS+.
All Olivo would have to hit would be .211/.295/.367 to score a 86 OPS+ ... that's what Saunders hit.
Olivo can take a big penalty from Safeco and still wayyyyyyy overperform our '90 catching. We're all forgetting about Moore's 520 OPS :- )
I don't know Doc. 09 was a PX spike and 08 and 10 were right around his career average.
I think the career mark is more likely going forward with some penalty for Safeco.
It does, ya. Hes 7% above average CS%, but below-average PBs.
Bref keeps track of it. Hes right around dead-average for his career. Definetly not a premium defender like Gut.
In 2010 he was +6 runs, but that was a career high in CS%. Over his entire career he has a surplus of 3 runs, meaning hes pretty much league-average.
Olivo is definetly a big upgrade over our 09 catchers, but it shouldn't be the standard. Thats a comfortably below RL performance.
Even so, you can understand why Z wanted to lock up a competent guy there ASAP. Another disaster year at C could cost his job.
Olivo has not increased his power at all, Doc. I'll sya it again...he had one fluke year.
There is one aspect to this that I have only seen referenced once. I can't recall if it was Baker or Churchill but one of them hinted that after the season ended, Felix told management "get me a catcher". I doubt that Zaun or some other retread backup catcher is what Felix had in mind.
Best way to spend the money in this market, given the holes that the team has to fill? I dunno. But if he makes Felix happy, then he's worth far more to this franchise than the $$ they will be paying him. At worst, he'll be an improvement over what we saw behind the backstop last year.
2005 - 109
2006 - 112
2007 - 112
2008 - 140
2009 - 159
They don't have his 2010 PX out, but it looks like 2009.
Did you get my PM thru this site?
If you can't get them here, please check them at MC.
That it remains to be proven beyond doubt that Olivo is a premium defender, but am convinced that he is.
Where do you see +6 runs? In fangraphs value, fielding column, they give +11 for last year, +21 over the last five years.
I don't jibe with the constant use of career stats, but his career 318:175 SB:CS is way below break-even for offense. As a result, it's to Olivo's team's benefit every time somebody takes off.
"Almost you persuade me..." (Acts 26:28, disputed translation), Doc.
IF Olivo overcomes the Safeco effect on hitters of his profile, if his average and power translates directly to Safeco, then he becomes a pickup with some value. But this is precisely the question, and as far as I can tell in several articles you do not once address this point, which is central to the anti-Olivo opinion.
If your selling point on a player is "he'll be a tremendous improvement over the manure pile we had last year...average is better," point taken. One would hope the standard of comparison for building a winning team is not piles of manure.
Now, as someone who has argued that the M's definitely should not start four rookies at the same time and expect them to carry the lineup while also breaking into MLB, I can get behind bringing in a bona fide veteran starting catcher. That's just smart, to me. I'm just not sold on bringing in a guy who will be fighting the park profile every game you bring him out there. We've all seen how discouraged some players can get at Safeco, and it ain't pretty. I've gotta admit I'm looking at this through Beltre-and-Lopez colored glasses. In my mind, it's possible Olivo hits .210 / .241 / .387 here. If he does, how do we look at it then?
But right now, is the standard...
The Olivo signing isn't Two Thumbs Way Up in a vacuum, but IMHO it is, in our specific situation...
If MtGrizzly's angle be the right one, the question simply becomes Olivo-for-the-$, vs. Other MLB(TM)-catcher-for-the-$...
You're not talking about replacing a decent player with a star... you're talking about putting a tourniquet on a 50-OPS+ position...
In my mind, it's possible Olivo hits .210 / .241 / .387 here. If he does, how do we look at it then?
We look at it as what it is: adding +20 runs offensively and +10 defensively :- )
Saunders hit .211/.295/.367, equating to a 86 OPS here; Gutierrez hit .245/.303/.363 for an 87 OPS.
Olivo's going to hit at least that, thereby fixing the -30 runs (below league) that we got from catcher last year.
Basic problem is that ---- > it hasn't hit anybody, just how tough the C position was last year. if we'd replaced our SS's with an 85-OPS glove man, we'd all be happy about the 2-3 wins added, right?
................
Love the reference :- )
Folks IN SEATTLE think of Miguel Olivo as a desperately terrible hitter, but they don't think that anywhere else.
Olivo is now a mediocre hitter, actually a pretty decent one for a catcher.
On the Olivo bandwagon. I mentioned, probably just before you posted these articles, that Olivo's walk percentage has crept up near average the last 3 years, going from 2-2.5%, to 4% in 2009, to 6% in 2010. So when you mentioned his EYE numbers were always and still are awful, you were right, but when you said that they've never improved, actually they've improved dramatically. From 2005 to 2008, he averaged over 10 Ks per BB. In 2009, 6.6 Ks per BB. But last year, it was down to a poor but palatable 4.3 Ks per BB. I think Olivo is adabtable and learning to temper his swing at everything ways as he ages and his bat slows.
Maybe one thumb.
But first, $3.5 a year for two years is not worth all the consternation. Somebody's gotta catch, and the salary is not out of line for a veteran with a fair measure of MLB skills.
Second, I think the Felix angle is definitely there. One of Drayer's first comments was something like "Felix will love pitching to him" (which seems like a way of saying "Felix asked for him" or somebody like him). Grizz is right on that -- small price to pay if it makes Felix better, and Grienke won the Cy pitching to Olivo every time out.
Pitchers, apparently, do not view him as the equivalent of Bard, and they matter in the real world.
That being said, I still see it as a mixed bag. But I guess whomever said that it was essentially moving Lopez from 4th to 8th in the order had it about right, except with more strikeouts. C can't get any worse, and the key will still be Smoak and Cust producing in the middle of the order no matter who catches.
So, onward . . . Jose Flores! Laynce Nix! More of the scrap heap awaits!
This could be the key. If the pitchers enjoy throwing to Olivo, we're suddenly not talking about the blocking of Adam Moore anymore (because he can be "mentored" while catching 50 - 60 games). The signal that the M's have sent by signing Olivo isn't that they've given up on Moore...it's that they've given up on Rob Johnson.
What was Johnson's major selling point when he kept getting playing time? Hey, he calls a great game, the pitchers like him, etc., etc.
If Olivo can outhit Rob Johnson, and help Adam Moore ease his way into MLB level baseball over the course of the next couple of years, then he will be well worth the paycheck. Because Johnson wasn't going to be able to "mentor" Moore on the finer arts of catching - they're both at very close to the same level of development...and why would Johnson want to? If Moore fell on his face again coming out of ST, would anyone really want Josh Bard starting on a regular basis? Or, as much as I like him, Zaun? Not for 110 starts, no thanks.
Olivo, on the other hand, can be the veteran...and over the course of the next 2 years, slowly start to hand the reigns to a (by all accounts) very motivated understudy. If Moore actually comes along faster than that, well, big woop - it's 3.5 mill. And, we no longer have to worry about patching the "backup" hole at catcher with stopgap veterans in the meantime.
So to me, the 2 year signing actually signals a possible era of stabilty behind the dish, assuming Moore actually does continue to progress.
Fangraphs doesn't calculate PBs and WPs. They only base their catcher defense off of CS%.
A guy like Olivo is skewed upwards by their system.
If the big guy requested a veteran presence catcher........then this is a deal that makes more sense. Much sense, probably.
I will concede if that was the case.
Olivo is a veteran catcher who can handle a guy like Felix.
Felix is happy right now. He is the face of the franchise and a mojo investment. You keep him happy, within reason.
If Jason Vargaas seay "Get me a catcher!" You tell him to shut up and throw.
When Steve Carlton says, "I'm throwing to Tim McCarver! Get it?" then you let him throw to Tim McCarver.
An extra $2.5M clams (figuring yuo were going to spend something to sign a veteran) for a problematic bat but better tan average defender at C is chump change if Felix continues to be Carlton/Gibson like.
That changes the dynamic of this deal. If it was the case.
Along these lines, I stand corrected.
Remember in the movie "Zulu" when the native saluted their opponent with a chant then walked away, defeated.
On this point, I'm there!
moe
A replacement level player like Bard would be a massive upgrade over Moore/RJ from last year. That was a uniquely incompetent situation.
Another concern with Olivo is the age. You've locked him up two years. If hes finished in '11, then you're stuck with him in '12 like we're stuck with Jack Wilson this year.
As a pure stop-gap its ok (just shows lack of vision), but the two years makes it risky.
Still thinking,
Now I'm wondering if there is a Spanish language wild card here?
And wondering if Felix had some input on who the M's signed?
I hadn't thought about those things before.
Food for thought.
I hate it when my initial response is potentially quite wrong.
moe
Didn't know that. Thanks for the catch Taro.
..............
But if true, why would a total of [14 passed balls and wild pitches] add up to the five runs that you took off his +11 runs saved?
A PB/WP is only 0.27 runs. Even if every other catcher in the league had 0 PB/WP, that's only 3.8 runs -- and what is the league average?
I am not much of a fan of Olivo but..in Denver he did have a pretty solid first half. More important, he seemed to take a lead and work well with pitchers. That right there could be a key ingredient to his helping the team. Torreabla was very popular the years before and Olivo seemed to fit right in.
Olivo has slugged .442 for his career in the first half ... .408 in the second. About what you'd expect from most catchers, I guess, as the beating takes its toll.
As you note, the split was wide in 2010: .325/.377/.548 (!) in the first half, followed by a horrible second half where his EYE fell off too.
Wonder if the kidney stones wrecked his season?
.................
But wow, it's great to see flashes like Olivo's 1H. His EYE was even way up. Shandler would take a 1H effort like that as a potential harbinger of a bustout.
And after that it was almost all downhill. Though, while a torn thumbnail probably would be painful and distracting for a long time, but unless he was retearing it over the rest of the year it's hard to imagine it not healing within a month.
Some interesting facts about Miguel Olivo while I'm posting on him; since 2005, he has a 70% success rate on stolen bases while taking the opportunity 6.4% of the time. It's a little more impressive when you realize a 6.4% stolen base attempt rate is league average, and while I don't have an easy way to find what the average steal attempt is for catchers, but I'm sure it's a lot lower than what the league average is.
Also, someone said that Olivo is a Flyball hitter - he's not, over the last 4 seasons, Olivo has run a 0.77 GB/FB ratio, compared to a league average of 0.8 GB/FB ratio. So he's about average for lofting flyballs.
When his GB ratio was way up -- reflecting his panicky lunges out in front of the ball.
Olivo has plenty 'nuff power to go yard to CF, so if he's relaxing into a hit-to-CF game that's more good news.
I've trained myself to go right to extra-base hits and walks (I actually took three semesters of stats, but I haven't taken the time to figure out wOBA).
Anyway, 2006 and 2008 just freaked me out: 452 PAs, 9 walks at age 27; then 317 PAs, 7 walks at age 29. This was after he had become a good hitter after escaping his Safeco house of horrors.
OPS+ was OK, but it looked like it was based on occasional power and lots of rally-killing Ks and fly outs.
I kind of glossed over 2010, but it does seem that he made some significant improvement in terms of walk rate and overall approach. At the same time, it seems to have been pretty much limited to the first half.
Absolutely, first-half 2010 Olivo is a player to be real excited about. Did you notice had FIVE TRIPLES in the first half? 5 triples, 11 HR and 20 walks in 253 PAs (.325/.377/.548). That's All-Star from a non-catcher. But second half it all evaporated; only 13 more XBH and 7 more BB.
The theory that he wore out is plausible, but he actually had his spike of walks in 09 in the second half -- 16 of his 19 walks were after he'd already started 60-some games behind the plate.
If you take the 2nd half of 09 and the 1st half of 10, you've got a superstar catcher; 111 games caught -- 14 dbl, 8 tpl, 21 HR, 36 walks. Don't know what to make of that, but it's intriguing.
Brendan Ryan for M. Cleto. Good insurance for Jack Wilson and a stand in at 2nd base until Ackley is ready. Great defender, weak hitter. I like the trade.
Great, great move IMO. Just got done ranting about this over at MC. :-)
Agree with all the above(mostly). Now that he has recovered from his wrist injury, hopfully he can move back up towards his 2009 numbers. How did he do with a bat in the minors, is he a weak hitter or potentially something more? Safeco might be a park that helps a gap hitter like this. Cleto was highly thought of when he came over from the Mets but hasn't really moved upwards in the last 2 years. He does throw hard but his control is a problem. Of course he still could figure it out, but this is one prospect who may just stay a prospect or someday make it as just a reliever, which is what many think he will be converted to. I say good trade, hopeful upside.
Ryan's a glove-man, pure and simple. He's never posted a wOBA above .308 in a full minor league season, and his 2009 MLB campaign was built on an outlier .332 BABIP. Not saying it's utterly impossible for him to get back there someday, but it's not even close to in-line with the rest of his career to date, which in over 1300 PA's in MLB is .292 (including the .332 2009).
He's probably a 1.5-2 WAR player at a premium defensive position that we needed to fill. A perfectly serviceable stopgap who could potentially pop up to 3 WAR if his offense can get back to 2009's levels, however unlikely that is.
Good return for Cleto, probably. We had no need for Cleto, anyways, and he was at least a year away from helping out in the 'pen.
were for his high minors time listed on Fangraphs. He started out a bit hotter in the low minors with mid-.700's OPS's, but cooled progressively as he climbed the system's ladder.
In the minors, he hit like a MI who was going to be fighting a rearguard action in the majors.
:daps: Jonezie.
It's not like Safeco is going to *help* a Jack Wilson or Brendan Ryan, but there are some other types of hitters that it destroys ... Beltre, Lopez, etc.
If Safeco is *relatively* less of a problem for a flyball-neutral, handle-the-bat guy like Ryan -- than for pull flyball RH hitters -- that'll have to do.
Is his infield hits. When Chone came over, the one stat he showed improvement on was his infield hit percentage, the 10.3%IFH/GB rate he posted was the second highest of his career and a big improvement over his previous 5 seasons. I believe it was Taro that told me originally that the grass at Safeco plays slow, so a week ground ball up the line turns into a swinging bunt and gives the runner a chance. Ryan might benefit significantly from that as a fast player and add a dozen or so singles to his batting line that would have otherwise been close outs.
But in the mind's eye, can definitely visualize what you're talking about. ... wonder why it never dawned before. Thanks.
No doubt the grass plays slow. Not sure whether that translates to a better offensive game all-round, but it does seem to help Ichiro.
Ryan's fast, but not sure he's fast out of the box...