Thornton and Putz were coming up at the same time, if I recall, and both were always just tantalizing (and frustrating) until -- boom! -- all of the sudden they're all stars. You're right that it didn't happen for Thornton until the Ms gave up. With Putz, if I recall, it was Eddie Guradado teaching him the right way to throw the splitter, more than anything the Ms coaching staff did. Cleto could be the same way -- long-term project that pays off unexpectedly, or just endlessly frustrates.
Speaking of not giving up, here's a guy you might find interesting. What do you make of this career arc:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/scott-patterson.shtml
To which add this winter:
11 G, 14.1 IP, 13 H, 4 ER, 2 HR, 2 BB, 14 K, 2 SV
A very interesting analysis here, complete with super slo-mo video:
http://saberscouting.wordpress.com/2008/04/15/the-deception-of-scott-pat...
=== BAD Dept. ===
THE BAD being that .... well, not to be too harsh here, how should we put it ... hm.
I'm a body language guy. I believe that the body conveys attitude. When you see a guy covering his mouth during conversation, he's not happy about what you or he are saying...
I hate what Cleto's body language on the mound is saying. It's a Yuniesky Betancourt message.
It can be corrected, of course. Dr. D managed, eventually, to correct his desire for most-reward-for-least-possible-effort attitude, from the outside in, but it wasn't easy...
RockiesJeff mentions a big part of the cure: lowering that CG, to promote its mobility. Just so. That's a good starting point. Once this guy can throw 50 pitches with his CG a good 8 inches lower, the good habits might begin...
(There are pitchers who throw well, as high as Cleto is. I loved Len Barker's motion. But the Len Barkers of the game weren't lazy in their mechanics, and they weren't jerky in them.)
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THE BAD being that we're not exactly used to seeing aiki problems addressed in the United States. It's all about checkpoints that occur as FAR AWAY from the belly button as possible!
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Or maybe it's a local thing. Didn't Brandon Morrow, Matt Thornton, and Gil Meche have a good game or two immediately upon joining other organizations? What did they have in common? CG issues.
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=== GOOD Dept. ===
THE GOOD being that Maikel Cleto legitimately has a Brandon Morrow arm.
Cleto's arm is not only noted for going 96-99, but also he has those long arms and fingers. Everybody says he gets great spin and late explosion, just like Morrow.
Also, Cleto has gone through periods of his career pitching VERY effectively with ONLY a fastball, just like ... guess who?
..............
You saw what happened when Brandon Morrow v.1.0 got right. 3.63 xFIP's, 17-strikeout games, and the immediate prospect of true greatness.
A guy with a plus-plus-(plus!) fastball, who is limping along with everything wrong EXCEPT his fastball ... well, he's in the Randy Johnson (and, yes, Daniel Cabrera) template. There's ever the chance of fixing him...
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=== Dr's R/X Dept. ===
It's a funny thing: We tend not to draw comps between two players who physically look so radically dissimilar. But Cleto gives the Mariners a second shot at things. Brandon Morrow v.2.0. That's Cleto's new name on SSI.
Morrow's problems were complex and difficult to solve. Cleto's are far simpler. If Cleto's doing this with two broken legs, imagine when he gets his driveline together.
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We'll be rootin' for ya kid,
Dr D
Comments
If you, G, Matt or somebody don't get to it first, that looks like a fun POTD.
Not sure the slightly unorthodox leg motion impacts much - ML hitters seem to dial in pretty tightly onto the release point - but the 'sky-high release point' interests greatly. One of the things that helped Fister land with a splash, despite the minus FB.
Gracias Spec.
Thanks for all your work Jeff. As to the quality of articles, Dr. J. All well done. You crack me up. Do you think that Mr. Cleto has collected a few of those Happy Meals toys. Trade him to SF?
I am NO expert but Cleto looks like he kind of does a Flosbury Flop on the mound. He has to have the talent they thought in the original trade to throw with form that sees him falling all over the mound. There is upside if he is coached and he is coachable.
Watching Cleto's left leg land (and body then kind of follow) is the evidence of an inconsistent form throughout. Lee Trevino looked funny to most but he was strong through golf's hitting area and incrediblely consistent. He could make the golf ball dance. I love watching Cliff Lee land as he is always in control. This is why Cleto's pitches are all over the place in shotgun patterns. Sawed-off shotgun. Too much variety is an alarm to any pro batter's eye. Even if his fastball becomes great, weak off-speed can negate it quickly as hitters get the pattern.
Cleto is a big man with a big man's motion. Slow can breed lazy/extra movement. He could never pitch like an Oswalt. But there a lot of loose screws that need to be tightened. Watch Lee on his leg lift and his hip. He quickly begins with the left hip to drive sideways to home. Same motion and slot each time. Cleto does more of a twist and, back from high school days, the shuffle.
So much to write. I shall bore no one further. But from the video, either he tighten up to repeat the same delivery or he will continue the need to look over his shoulder to flying baseballs.
I liked the examples of Thornton and Putz. Not living (with regret) in Seattle, I saw those two hammered in articles and mail. It took each a time before they "got it." This is a mental skill sport. But this kid still can throw with broken legs as you say. Let' hope Mr. Cleto will make Safeco a home. It would be the result of a lot of hard work. Best to him and his coaches!
PS - Chris Crawford gave a short and good quote on Cleto last night at Propect Insider: "I was able to talk to a scout about Cleto, who told me that while the arm strength is impressive, the command and mechanics are not."
cf. http://prospectinsider.com/view/afl-report/?PHPSESSID=1ec6daa449eb8eb36a...
You both are great to read. Thanks! Have you ever studied the release of Maddux. There was a guy who really drove to home and he released the ball several feet closer than most. His virtual velocity always kept hitters guessing. Cleto has so much potential talent...I hope that he can take advantage of it!
RockiesJeff is exactly right about Trevino...nobody remained squarer longer (other than Moe Norman, who you guys probably never heard of) through the hitting area. Trevino was one of the best ball strikers ever.
Cleto is a big guy and a bit more speed would help the delivery. But the rapid hip turn, the follow through, and the arm slot are a bit reminiscent of this guy (not making a comparison, btw).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nacSEtE7PNc
All comments appreciated.
BTW....Cleto's weight is no problem now (Seaver and Clemens were guys who were pretty dang "hippy" with well defined thighs in their primes). The concern is that as he matures that weight "matures" with him.
I will say, however, that Cleto looks to have chicken legs. Lower body development and strength would help that delivery.
Moethedog, thanks for the link to history. It is hard to try to evaluate something that is sacred for baseball and floods your mind with memories of that day and that particular series. Yes, I am old but can’t remember watching Ty Cobb. Those were extremely good Tiger hitters that Gibson had looking lost at the plate. Isn’t it wonderful how baseball can be timeless at times?
If someone wants to compare a Cleto to someone like Gibson, even before you look at the delivery, look at the facial shots between the two. Gibson has the killer stare of a Nicklaus or Woods. Cleto looks so average, almost casual. And that shows then, imo, in the delivery.
Cleto has about 2 inches and 20-30 pounds on Gibson. With Cleto, as you said, it takes that strength to drive a bigger body with consistency every pitch. It is hard to tell from the camera angle but Cleto is more closed and thus has to throw over his body more. Gibson was quick with the hips but his balance was excellent and now a flop as Cleto is apt to. Gibson that year had the higher mound and look at where he releases the pitch. His drive to home puts that release several feet closer to home which is like adding approx 3mph to each pitch with later breaks.
Your man Moe was an amazing ball striker. Great to hear you bring up his name. Under appreciated through his life who is now finally getting a bit more recognition just because he was rare. Many didn’t like his body type or swing as it was not “pretty” like a Weiskopf. But that man knew how to hit a golf ball and repeat every action. Certainly Gibson was like that. Gibson could be criticized for his spin and fall off. Watch him through the ball and he was solid. Kind of like an Arnie who not only hitched his pants but also had the hitch in his follow through. The follow through didn’t matter as his strength through the hitting area and then the ball was long gone. I think Cleto could learn to tighten up his motion to help get rid of so much wasted movement that in time creates inconsistency. I read where people want to throw Cleto to the pen after this season and his wildness. Cleto is still only 21. Gibson did not pitch MLB until approximately 23. Give Cleto some coaching and time, let him mature and hopefully his talented arm will become a favorite topic here!
Good words Moethedog!
OUCH! I didn't see the pitches but...2.1, 8 hits and 6 earned runs....1 K and ZERO walks. No walks...have to look for something bright don't you?