Seattle Sports Insider

U.S. - Slovenia Bag Job (3)

Posted by

6/20/10

=== Who's the Man Behind the Curtain?, cont. ===

... What is the influence in the World Cup, though? You had an American team playing a European team, with an African ref. What does FIFA care whether the U.S. advances over Slovenia? The U.S. TV market is like 150 times Slovenia's. Is it that (1) FIFA is trying to grease England's skids to the knockout round?

Or, perish the thought, (2) DO gamblers influence refs in the World Cup? Is that what happened, was that the African ref was threatened and bribed so that crime bosses could profit?

Some commentators have argued that it was (3) a simple case of anti-Americanism. Maybe. But I don't notice that this is the first ref's call that has ever decided a game, and the U.S. isn't a frequent player on this stage.

So what are they saying, that refs in the World Cup simply favor countries over other countries based on geopolitics? :- ) C'mon...

=== Put the Plexiglass Screen in Front of the Pitchers' Mound Before Somebody Gets Killed ===

You begin to understand why refs commonly and routinely fear for their lives in South America and Europe. Fans are going to watch their beloved sport, but they're not going to take the fixes lying down. It gets so that every questionable call is presumed to be a bag job and the ref culprit is literally presumed to be worthy of death.

Not the healthiest situation, I wouldn't think, but then neither is U.S. offshore drilling and the competing interests behind that. When a lot is at stake, the nasties come out of the wordwork, and in World Cup soccer there is surely a whale of a lot at stake.

=== Distant Replay ===

I used to think that MLB umpires resisted instant replay mostly out of a pride factor. Out of fear that they'd be automated out of their jobs. That they felt insulted by it.

As you get to looking at this thing, though, you really start to wonder, especially with respect to soccer. The resistance to TV replay is especially ferocious in that sport, and especially from the powers-that-be. It would be the simplest and quickest thing in the world to review offsides calls from the line judges. But they'd rather drink Gulf water first.

Could it be because shadowy figures behind the scenes know that instant replay will lessen their ability to control the outcome of a game? Is that a primary lobby against replay - those who are using officiating to script their industries?

The NFL has been quite forthcoming in its efforts to move replay forward. SSI construes this to mean that the NFL is relatively clean. I don't notice, however, that baseball is real quick to legislate fair outcomes.

BABVA,

Jeff

Comments

Mariner umpiring.

On the subject of fair play in baseball, I'll say this. In 2009, I checked the scorecard on pitch-calling for 14 Mariner baseball games in August (that critical time when we were trying to get back into the AL West race and had a lot of very frustrating games against contending teams where we were griping about Wak not challenging the umps) and found a HUUUUUGE bias against the Mariners on balls and strikes.
The more I watch baseball games, the more I believe that the umpires are pressured to call things extra fairly (heh) for large markets like LA, NY, Boston, Dallas and Atlanta and let the blown calls fall on the side of out of the way places like Seattle.

Wow

Quite a bit of overreaction here Doc. Let me preface by saying that I was fortunate to grow up in Europe until 11 and have been in Seattle for the last 30 years so I have a love for both futbol and american sports (my dad is from Boston).
One of the things that happens in Soccer is that so few goals are scored that mistakes are magnified. In football, we see these mistakes all the time on holding calls, PI and so forth but don't complain as much because teams usually have 1-3 downs to overcome the blown calls. Defensive PI is probably the exception because we have all seen calls made that shouldn't be that essentially give the offensive team a TD by putting the ball at the 1.
Actually, baseball is one of the worst. For example, watch any game and see how a bad call on a 1-1 pitch makes a difference on the outcome. If the ump calls a ball a strike because it is "close enough" the odds for the batter on a 1-2 pitch v a 2-1 pitch are extremely significant. If we really cared about getting it right, we would use questec to call strikes and be done with it.
Heck, look at that "HR ball" that the kid took out of the defenders glove a few years back where he clearly reached into the field of play during the WS! It happens and it is the human element of sports.
Look, the US got hosed. I remember earlier in the game when they called us for a foul on almost the exact same play and I told my US buddy to be glad that it didn't take away a goal. :-) That should teach me to open my mouth.
I do believe that FIFA can do some things to improve the accuracy of referees. For one, there should be two linesmen on each side, especially in WC games. this provides the referees with an extra set of eyes to make the right calls. They should also get together to make sure they get the right call, similar to what NBA does when a ref doesn't see the play (tipped balls out of bounds, deflections off the rim, etc).
As a Seattle fan for 30 years, I have similar memories as you with Phoenix/Sonics and Hawks/SteAlers. I agree with Matt that it is part of living in "south Canada". But as for futbol, it really is the beautiful game - even though sometimes they just get it wrong.
MY $.02,
Bilbo

Baseball is not "the worst"

...the umpiring in baseball may be of poor quality, but individual official rulings rarely have the power to change a game all by themselves...this puts more power in the hands of the players. For example...if you have an ump with a huge strikezone...yes, that twists the outcome of the game toward one with few runs scoring, but both teams have time to adjust their play to account for this.
Soccer is much easier to "fix" if you're one of the refs than any other sport.

"Improve the accuracy" ? :- )

You're working under the premise that the referee's problem was skill or training, Bilbo.
Skill / training / "accuracy" had nothing to do with THAT call. The referee was well aware that he saw no U.S. foul. He called a foul for some reason other than what happened on the play. That is a given.
If there were ANY possibility that he thought he saw something and just lacked training or skill, it's a different conversation. But there was NO "plausible deniability" on THAT play.

U.S. vs Euro ref-enabling

But - supposing for the sake of argument that the ref made an honest mistake -
You've still got the difference between what U.S. sports fans will accept and what Euro fans will accept -- which is the main point here.
Denkinger's honest mistake to blow the 1985 Series is still unacceptable in America. A call like the U.S. - Slovenia game would be crucified in the U.S. -- but European fans see stuff like that and they go "everybody calm down, we still have a great sport."
Soccer fans jump to the defense of these refs and in so doing, perpetuate their own misery.

And if there WERE a game-deciding call

There would be pressure on the umps not to get it wrong.
...................
FIFA reacted to day by saying "We can not and will not explain individual calls - we are very, very satisfied with the ref'ing," or somesuch.
You know, as though they were an internet payday loan company airily refusing to give a refund. The arrogance is breathtaking.
..................
This FIFA infrastructure has no accountability at all. They could fix every game in the Cup, smirk about it, and the fans would jump to their defense "well, that's football. Let's go have a pint."
I'm blinkin' glad that the good ole U.S.A. expects a little more from its sports.

I would suggest...

...that if the blown call was not blatant anti-Americanism (you're suggesting something more complex is going on...I think you're wrong...I think the deep hatred of America in Europe could easily extend to FIFA (which is a Eurocentric organization) hierarchy and from there to the referees through league pressure), then the fan reaction you have noted here (oh well...bad calls happen, no biggie) certainly is anti-Americanism. If the bad call had happen to France or Spain or England or Italy...the fan reaction would have been absolute FUROR.

Anti-Americanism?

At this risk of turning this discussion political, *ahem*, having spend the last 2.5 years in Europe I have to say I saw very very little blatant anti-American opinion in my interactions with the Europeans. I would say most of them are very curious and respectful of us. Most of them condemned our foreign policy under the Bush Administration, but most of Americans did as well by the end of his term. I even encountered many people, the most memorable of which were Danes, who said "I love America and Bush, f*** the Muslims". Most everyone that I talked to respected me and was interested in what I had to say. The most common complaint of Americans is that we are rude, loud, and arrogant. Which while observing the behavior of American tourists relative to all others I have to say I agree with. It's nothing intentional, it just comes off that way because that is how we interact with each other in our own home country. Although when it comes to rude and arrogant we a far cry from the Italians and the Dutch. I have experienced far far more knee-jerk anti-France sentiment in America than I have anti-American sentiment in any other country on Earth.
However, if the point is that there is anti-American sentiment in soccer I can see a strong case to be made there. How dare the Americans come to our part of the world and beat us at a game that no one in their country cares about? America hasn't paid its dues in World Football and doesn't deserve to win. And Doc is right, the ref intentionally blew that call from my perspective. No excuse for FIFA or the ref himself.

And the moon landing was FAKED! : )

"The referee was well aware that he saw no U.S. foul. He called a foul for some reason other than what happened on the play. That is a given."
Given?
How is it knowable what was going on in the ref's head? Based on what? If you were wrong, how would you know? : )
You can break down what happened in to three different scenarios:
1. The referee knew it was a bogus call, and acted alone to keep the Americans from going ahead
2. The referee knew it was a a bogus call, and acted under direction or influence from some other party or organization to keep the Americans from going ahead
3. The referee thought he made the right call, thinking he saw something that wasn't there
Occam's razor applies here. Most likely is #3, because it happens All. The. Time. The Jim Joyce call is all the proof you need, really. Joyce had only to observe one isolated event, he knew exactly where that event was going to take place, he'd seen that exact same event happen thousands of times before, he had audio clues to go on as well as visual ones. And he flat blew it. He thought he made the right call. Until he saw the video.
The ref in the soccer game, had many, many more variables to evaluate in a fraction of a second. The players were bunched together creating a chaotic context. He had to take in to account the parralax of his position. 20 or so people to keep track of, all moving in different directions.
Add to that, the fact that he was a relatively inexperienced referee.
There is most definitely plausible deniability on that play. Lots of it. It is extraordinarily common for people to think with 100% certainty that they saw something, that just wasn't there. For crying out loud, the eye has a blind spot that the brain just fills in. : )
It was a bad call, but not so bad that human error could not be the explanation. I'll take that until there's evidence to tilt the preponderance towards a more shadowy explanation.

I was talking about soccer...not public opinion.

But if you read European MEDIA...there is indeed a very strong and very biased anti-American slant to news reporting in Europe. Not that that was my point at all.
I was exclusively talking about soccer...the anti-American sentiment in soccer is quite noticeable around the globe. And no, I don't think it's fair to say "the Americans don't deserve to win because they haven't paid their dues." If you play better than the other team, you should win the darned game...end of story.

As far as the politics go

We'll give you the last word. :- )
I agree that the reaction in the street ... to a polite and understated American ... is quite different from European reaction to America as a political entity.
Thanks for your input FN. "After coming into contact with a FIFA official I feel I must always wash my hands" ;- )

Thanks for your input too GL :- )

That's why I compared it to a ref flagging Randy Moss for pass interference if a replay showed him streaking down the sideline unmarked.
In the abstract, yeah, with some refereeing plays, there's no way to know what was going on in the ref's head.
In the specific, there are some plays, that's not the case. The ref didn't see anything because there WASN'T anything.
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Intriguing to the objective observer was the fact that Slovenia knew before the play that they had the ref with them.
Hence the 1-way bear-hugs all over the field -- with 4 minutes left -- when in any other circumstances, a foul called on the bear-hugs would have lost the game.
Sorry GL. Yer erring on the naive side o' this one ;- )

That's the key observation.

Slovenia was playing nuts-to-the-wall...you don't play that way in a tie game if you fear a red card or a free kick score. They had no fear at all of the refs.

Ya

You are not going to see THREE defenders committing Big Time Wrestling chairs-to-the-noggin unless they KNOW they've got the ref.
ANY of them get called, that's the loss, right there -- and they had no idea that the free kick was going to be a goal.

Selective Amnesia then

because in every game, on every set piece in the box, there is a lot of pushing, holding and hugging going on. Seriously guys, this isn't a USA thing. Perhaps it seems that way because you don't see a lot of soccer but unfortunately it is a part of the game. It really is like NFL holding where they can call it on any play but allow a lot of it "if the hands are inside". :-)
I watched the Spain game yesterday where there were two pretty clear penalties in the box that weren't called. It is a judgement call made by an official 20 yards off the ball. We also have the advantage of close ups on TV, which look a lot different then things do at field level.

Not sure where you get the idea that it is ok

World soccer fans are empassioned to a degree that we don't understand, often including politics in their rooting interest for futbol. It raises the stakes to a level you couldn't imagine in the US. Referees around the world are often afraid for their lives after blown calls cost teams games!
As another example, I grew up rooting for Madrid and when some friends and I were going to take a ferry to Ibiza (a Mediterranean Island) from Barcelona, my friend insisted on taking his car with him because it had Madrid license plates and he was afraid what would happen to it. It cost him an extra $100! LOL
Honestly, I am proud that US fans are in an uproar over what happened because normal US behavior toward soccer would have been more along the lines of "meh, at least they came back and tied." Had this happened to Spain, Italy, Brazil, England, etc. you would still be hearing about it and the press there wouldn't accept FIFA's non-response.

Fair nuff :- )

I'm going off the torrent of chat-board remarks "hey that's football, get used to it, we did," but yeah.
Like we said originally, that is part of why the rife death threats against referees, 'cause the fans know they're all bent and aren't real happy about it ;- )

See above

Of course there are fouls and gray areas etc. It's just that THAT play wasn't one of the gray-areas-oh-dear-how-shall-we-sort-this-out instances.

GOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL

After yet ANOTHER bag job by the refs to take away a US goal. Landon Donovan Scores during the first minute of stopage time to save the US from going home early!!!!!!! This is analogous to the last second 3 pointer in game 7 of the Western Conference Finals (not NBA finals though since we are still just in pool play :) ) to bring you back from 2 down to winning in one big awesome sweet shot :)

USA!
USA!
USA!
USA!

Vids of game saving goal:

Until they get taken down of course :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBtWDlXQZr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MltSKo4KuI

Kind of a right place right time type of goal, but Landon set him self up for the rebound and slammed it in!