It's not really fair to say that he played 134 games last year and say it's almost as many as he played this year and he started to fade way before game 134. Looking at his innings fielded, he had about 930 last year, compared to 1260 this year. Divide the difference by 9 inning games and you get, roughly, 36 games. 36 games ago was August 14 by my count. Franklin Gutierrez from July 16-August 14: .286/.333/.459/.793, and since August 15: .240/.297/.315. This isn't to say that Gutierrez is in line for that 130 OPS+, just saying that fatigue may be playing a bigger part than you're giving it credit for.
=== Josh Wilson ===
I/O: Hitting .143/.196/.200 the last month, with 16 strikeouts in 56 AB's. Has 2 runs scored in 60 PA's (a pace for 20 runs scored in a season).
CRUNCH: Wilson came in, had a hot week or two, causing folks to wonder whether he'd learned how to hit. :- )
As Mark Twain would say, we'll bring the curtain down at this point in the discussion, out of sheer human kindness.
Well, okay. As Bill James would say, we don't start wondering whether a 28-year-old has suddenly learned to play baseball because of a hot week or month.
On some of these amigos, Wilson, Hannahan, several of the pitchers, etc., we start thinking about the 1983 handbook -- track records, track records, track records.
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=== Franklin Gutierrez ===
I/O: Hitting .258/.312/.373 since the All-Star Break,with 17 walks vs 53 strikeouts. Has been some time since Dave Sims raved about him as "by far the best player on the Mariners."
His second-half OPS+ was 82, after a first-half OPS+ of 114.
CRUNCH: Gutierrez played 134 games in 2008. He's 26, in great physical shape, and the decline began long before game #134. It's not feasible to make excuses for Guti on the basis that he's not used to playing this many games.
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Mike Cameron was an extremely similar player and hitter to Guti. FWIW, not all that much, at age 25, 26, and 27, he had no significant second-half fades.
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Typically Ron Shandler would interpret an age-26, 2H fade in one of two ways:
1) Part of the unsteady growth of a quality young player.
2) Shows that the 1H is about as good as it's going to get.
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As y'know, I love Guti's swing (as I liked Mike Cameron's real well). He's shown visible progress in terms of checking his swing on the low-away slider.
I'd tend to interpret Guti's 2009 2H in both ways per Shandler: nothing to worry about, just part of the learning process, and also don't expect a 135 OPS+ hitter out of this guy at any point.
A Mike Cameron career path is the midrange projection at the present. Not a star IMHO any more than Jose Lopez is a star, but obviously a plus defender, at a premium position, with a solid bat, making arb money, is a huge asset.
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=== Bill Hall ===
I/O: Now hitting .184/.234/.345 in 24 games for the Mariners. The 93 PA's are considerably more than he'd get in, say, a spring training.
6 walks, 36 (!!) strikeouts in 87 at-bats.
CRUNCH: It doesn't exactly look like it visually, and this administration doesn't crucify its own players the way the old one sometimes did. But this is a Miguel Olivo situation, with that strikeout rate.
We've seen the staff do some neat things with hitters' mechanics, like with Mick Saunders', but Hall has a real good swing. He just doesn't see the ball.
It didn't start yesterday, either. The project remains interesting, especially with this staff, but I'll believe it when I see it...
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=== Jack Wilson ===
I/O: Hitting .241/.279/.310 the last 30 days. It's not enough.
CRUNCH: Can't pick up the option, not at that dough.
I was sympathetic to the idea -- a great defensive SS, and Jack's kind of player -- but he's got to be able to pitch in with the stick a little bit. A 60 OPS+ is going to cancel even a great year by a Russell Branyan.
A slick glove that hits for a 60 OPS+, the rationale there would exist only at a minimum salary. You can't possibly pay this guy big dollars if he's not going to hit at all.
Wilson's not the only alternative in baseball for Mariners SS 2010. I mean, supposing he fell over Yuniesky Betancourt and was out for two years, you'd do something else then, right?
Wonder what Scutaro's up to...
Cheers,
Dr D
Comments
I'm concerned about Jack Wilson and Bill Hall.. Maybe its just a cold streak, or maybe we need to be taking this NL to AL thing a lot more seriously than we already are.
I think the the big issue with Franklin and Lopez is the massive difference in defense. Theres going to be a healthy 2 win edge on D alone, so Lopez really has to slug those HRs to make up the difference (especially with a low OBP). Franklin is going to end with a 5+ WAR superstar-esque season this year, but I wouldn't be suprised to see him level out around 4 WAR in the future if he doesn't improve offensively (if he DOES its a different question) and Lopez at around 2 WAR (though Lopez himself will be at 2-2.5 WAR this year).
I just don't know what to make of this guy.
Bret Boone looks like a good comp. Smaller-stature guys with about 60 points of patience. Drafted rounds 5-6.
Interestingly, both had breakout, really good years at age 25-26. Then fell off the map. Boone, after his 123 OPS+ age-25 season, went on to post OPS+ of 98, 64, 64 the following seasons. Then went up to league average for about three years, then exploded for an MPV caliber season at age *32*.
Hall is now 29YO, and posting an OPS+ of around 64.
So how can a player go from OPS+ of 120 at age 25, to 64 at 28, to 98 at 30, to 140 at 32?
Before you say, PED's, bear in mind that Hall's career is happening in an era of more stringent testing. There's been speculation, but no real reason to link his spike with anything chemical.
Anyway, my feeling is that Hall has never shown and will never show serious OBP or high OPS+ ability outside of that 1-2 year spike. I think it was a fluke.
Wish i knew what it was Gillick saw in Boone. He brought him in, and immediately and decisively named him the starting 2B over McLemore. At the time, Mac looked like the better player - better OBP, had played well for the M's, and Boone coming from the NL.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Ya, 4 WAR assuming he's +20 runs defensively... which wouldn't surprise me if true, but also wouldn't surprise me if not, considering my view that Safeco's CF is golden for fielders...
In any case, 3-5 WAR for practically no salary, that's what the GM gets the big bucks for :- )
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Wilson and Hall, ya, Capt Jack's penchant for NL Central players is looking a wee bit scary right now... fortunately he's got Branyan on the plus side of that ledger, though Russell had some AL time earlier...
But I notice that Ichiro isn't real tired. :- ) He's what, ten years older?
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Guti's playing more than he used to. Personally, I'm not super excited about the degree of change from 2008 to 2009. What, 26-year-old stallions like that can't play every day?
:shrug: I guess he could be fatigued. ... I would hope not.
Isn't the scuttle that he' been playing through some fairly serious knee pain for much of the second half?
I remember reading about the off season workout that they want him to get on once he gets the knee calmed down with the proper rest. IIRC, it revolves around him building up his leg strength to take some of the pressure off the joint.
Ichiro is:
a) a freak
b) a right fielder, so he's getting less of a workout from game to game.
Anyway, regardless of the fact that Gutierrez has played in more innings this year than any before, it's not uncommon for players, and (probably) center fielders especially, to slump at the end of the year. 9 of the 15 with 550+ plate appearances have had a pretty bad drop in OPS and eye ratio since mid-August (Including Gutierrez).
Matt Kemp .893 OPS/ .44 Eye through August 4, .782 OPS/ .25 Eye since
Shane Victorino .851 OPS/ .88 Eye through August 13, .685 OPS/ .79 Eye since
Michael Bourn .776 OPS/ .54 Eye through August 19, .652 OPS/ .30 Eye since
Kosuke Fukudome .857 OPS/ .93 Eye through August 17, .604 OPS/ .63 Eye since
Mike Cameron .824 OPS/ .58 Eye through August 22, .630 OPS/ .20 Eye since
Curtis Granderson .816 OPS/ .57 Eye through August 11, .648 OPS/ .39 Eye since
Alexis Rios .744 OPS/ .40 Eye through August 9, .430 OPS/ .12 Eye since
B.J. Upton .693 OPS/ .38 Eye through August 19, .542 OPS/ .19 Eye since
With the exception of Matt Kemp, all of them have seen their home run production drop as well (though in Michael Bourn's case, it's hard to tell).
And as far as Ichiro goes, last year, when he played a lot of center field,
Ichiro had a .758 OPS/ .93 Eye through August 12, and a .716 OPS/ .42 Eye after, he also had 5 homers in his first 500 ABs and just 1 in his final 200, so Ichiro is kind of human too.
Over at MC, I noted in a game thread that currently, the club has a whole lotta crud going on at SS.
Hannahan - .241/.323/.358/.680
JOSH wilson - .221/.267/.368/.636 - (not including the game-winning triple)
Bill Hall - .212/.259/.364/.623
JACK wilson - .224/.263/.299/.562
Evidence doesn't support the notion that the club currently has a SS they can win a title with. I see a bunch of guys with the potential to be a quality backup MI guy, who can play any position, and maybe not be a complete waste at the plate. But, I don't see a starter amongst the whole lot. JOSH is the guy I'm most intrigued about because he DOESN'T have a track record. He got a 1/2 season audition back in '07, and was pegged as fodder. Yes, he probably is fodder. But, Branyan was pegged as useless against lefties at about the age of 12, and never given a chance.
I see some guys who can markedly improve on the Cedeno/Wlad bench the club began 2009 with ... but an actual productive starter? I'd keep Langerhans as the solid #4 OF, (who can be the #3, if Saunders folds). But, for the infield relief, I could see arguments for EITHER Hannahan or JOSH -- but you take the one you want as a rover, and look for an upgrade on the open market.
SS is a problem position for the Mariners...they need to go out and get someone in FA this off-season or trade for someone if they have a piece they can afford to deal.
Marco Scutaro is a semi-attractive option...
(1) How much September batting decline do you think you'd see reflected across the majors?
(2) For those playing 155 games? You think that if you isolated the 155-gamers as a group, ML players' career Sept splits would be lousy?
You're thinking that if we took every Derek Jeter in the game, that their career September splits would be low? By how much -- 5 OPS+ points? Gutierrez' are down 30.
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Lopez, and half the Latin players it seems, run super-strong second half numbers. Why doesn't Lopez bog down at game 140? He's in nowhere near the condition that Gutierrez is.
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If they ever study 155-gamers in Sept, I'll predict the reverse, thanks. You and I both know that as a group, 155-game players don't decline by much, if at all, in September. If there were such a decline, it would be measured in terms of 1, 2, maybe 3 OPS+ points.
But, I hope that your dream for Guti turns out to be correct, that he's fresh in July next year and sustains the 118 OPS+ all year. That would be neat.
I'll side with my favorite interim manager on this debate, unless there's a compelling body of statistical evidence otherwise. I think fatigue with MLB players is way over-played.
Mental fatigue I could sorta buy into. Maybe. You get a bit homesick, or tired of living out of a suitcase.
Physical fatigue, I really doubt it. Prince Fielder's production hasn't tailed off. Neither has Sabathia's...
If his knee is bothering him a lot, then yeah. I give him a pass on his second half, definitely.
Thanks Griz.
...if you go to the day he banged into the wall in Detroit in late July and look forward from there, his stat line separates rather cleanly from his earlier production in terms of K/BB and ISO. So the knee injury thing makes some sense.