Konspiracy Korner - Feel the Bern
my little blonde college niece and Sanders - what a match

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You might or might not have grok'ked that Dr. D follows today's politics much less than you do.  He believes that he is well oriented on the issues, but not up-to-date on what this or that politician is arguing on the issues.  So this KK stub is more in the nature of a plea for education.  :- )

Bill O'Reilly is a fiery guy, but much more independent than the media represents him.  He seems to have no particular bone to pick with socialism, certainly nothing like the ire that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh have against socialism.  (I couldn't even tell you whether our Constitution speaks to the issues of caplitalism vs. socialism; maybe Mojician can help with that.)

O'Reilly seems to have absolutely nothing against Bernie Sanders except that --- > O'Reilly insists that the entire campaign is a straight-up dog and pony show.  The media angers him because it is "playing along" with a "phony deal."  (I've listened to six or eight O'Reilly shows in the last year.)  From his standpoint, the DNC would never allow Sanders to run as their nominee and the New York Times knows this very well.  If anything happens to Hillary, and by "anything" they seem to mean the FBI, then the DNC goes and gets Biden or Bloomberg or somebody.  

Which, if true, would indeed make Sanders' campaign a kind of farce.

Q1:  Is that true, that Sanders' campaign is not really a legit one from the DNC's and NYT's paradigms?

Q2:  If it were true, why would the DNC push him up front?  Perhaps to move socialism forward a bit this cycle, or to underline Hillary as a tough competitor, or ... ?

....

Those friends of mine who are Republicans -- I'm not one -- view this as perhaps true in the beginning, but that Sanders has become "the pony from the River Styx."  They see Sanders' grassroots support as spinning madly out of control from the DNC's standpoint.

I don't understand this support.  That doesn't mean, "I think the support is illogical."  I mean, it is opaque to me why the average college kid is so powerfully attracted to Sanders.  I'd like to know why.  I know for a fact the New York Times won't tell me; fortunately, I have you guys to tell me.  :- )

My friends also see Bernie Sanders as a very sincere politician.  They believe in fact that he was ineffective as a Senator precisely because he wouldn't play ball with the power brokers.  If THAT's true, to me it undercuts the New York Times' relentless argument that the Clintons never do anything that every other politician doesn't do.  In any case, Sanders seems an authentic and admirable American politician from a sincerity standpoint.  (Maybe you feel that Bill and Hillary are actually quite straightforward and honest people.  If so, please make your case.)

Q3:  Why is Sanders, who is three times my niece's age, so appealing to her?  Why do young left-wingers like him so much?  

It can't ONLY be the idea of redistributing older persons' money back to the kids.  Most U.S. college kids in the U.S. in 2016, by "equality" would mean that if you have an iPhone 6, I shouldn't be struggling along with an iPhone 5.  (Do YOU know anybody without a smartphone, a piece of pizza, and wall-to-wall carpeting?)  It's not like there's a raw nerve of poverty and squallor to which Bernie is playing some kind of modern Che Guevara.  Young people today IN FACT HAVE cake, Ms. Antoinette.  I thought the conditions had to be worse than this before the commoners stormed the Bastille?

It seems greatly to their credit, that 18-30 year olds would look past Sanders' curmudgeonly appearance and support him thoughtfully based on the issues.  Dr. D honestly thought, in the age of TV, that a person had to be good-looking and cool to be President.  Well, you know what I mean.

If I had to *guess,* it would be that Sanders represents a overall left-wing platform that is coming from a place of authenticity - and that a whole lot of young Democrats are quite disaffected with Hillary.  This would, in turn, mean that the RNC and DNC have underestimated Americans' resentment in being viewed as gullible.  That the real raw nerve being drilled, is voters' demand for authenticity.  That's a cheery thought!

But that is only an impression.  ... come to think of it, do any of the TV analysts have anything more than that?  ;- )

Would appreciate any insight you might have. 

.

Bemused,

Jeff

Blog: 

Comments

1

1) Because they dislike HRC for her apparent dishonesty and her long-running history of being financed by Wall Street.

2) Because they are true believers in socialism and perceive Sanders to be the one carrying water honestly for the cause.

or

3) Because young people like underdogs.  This is a bigger thing than you may realize - I remember, in my voting-aged youth, I was always attracted to the conservative candidate that was considered an outsider/underdog, because I wanted to be part of something big.  Sanders is calling his campaign a "political revolution"...young people want to be part of a revolution because it makes their lives feel purposeful.

2

You don't have to be a 'true believer' in socialism to value certain principles of socialism. Nor to think that incorporating characteristics of a socialist country while remaining a free market could be a good thing.

3

I agree with that gnatto.  To the extent that socialism is based on pure jealousy, I oppose it.  But to the extent that it calls baloney on the naked greed of the super-rich, I appreciate it.

+1.

4

I think, in order to receive Bernie Sanders' message as a positive, you have to agree with certain initial assumptions about the efficacy of socialism - if you have thought it through at all (and many people in America haven't thought through their political positions, I will cheerfully concede...and that's bipartisan. :) ), you will come to a point where you must ask: "Do I believe that the European models upon which Sanders' ideas are based is a better model?" and "Why do I believe that?"  In order to accept any piece of socialism, you need to accept the core tenets of the philosophy that birthed it.  Starting with the idea that government power is less dangerous than industrial power and including notions like the consumer-driven economy (it is common on the left to hear reasoning like: "If you increase minimum wages, people will have more discretionary spending room, so they will buy more things, so the economy will get better." Whereas in conservative circles, they talk about wealth creation to drive economy - creating new innovations that drive whole new markets...not just circulating money and goods around.  You have to decide which of these you believe is right before you can accept Bernie Sanders' message as making sense to you.

He does hit on a point that even I agree with, though.  He talks a great deal about how "bought and paid for" the political system has become.  I don't believe the answer to that problem is publicly financed elections (that is an excellent way to get tyranny really...really quickly), but I am just as skeptical of large corporate power as I am of large government power, and I think some thought needs to be given to how to discourage corporations from unduly influencing the exchange of ideas (I could make the conservative case for making the government smaller so that there is less incentive for businesses to bribe said government for favors...but that's not the point of this thread).  No message can succeed on any level without being built on some sort of fundamental truth.  Sanders is doing better than anticipated because his message begins with the indisputable truth that we are being massively influenced by a very small group of people who control the way that our political parties think and operate.

6
Nathan H's picture

The amount of power wielded by the two major parties is, in my opinion, a gross mutation of the democratic ideals as it was drawn-up. Not as much of a mutation as the tea partiers would have you believe, but enough of one to warrant my disassociation with either party.

I think the appeal of Bernie to the young'ns is the wrench he throws into the status-quo. He is, indeed, viewed as a sincere politician that doesn't play ball with the power-brokers. His victory would gum up the works of the current political landscape.

Young people aren't dumb and they've got a belly full of zeal; they are too eager to see change for change's sake. Young people see the corruption of the current system, the interbreeding of corporations and politicians and they want to disrupt that. Bernie has a legitimate track record of tirelessly working to disrupt that.

That's what the kids want to see. Not Bernie his own self but chaos thrown into the current political mix that he brings.

8

A foreigners perspective, but, yup. I think you nailed it on the head. It's about authenticity, what a breath of fresh air. He may be as hamstrung as any other president to make any real change but he's someone you can trust. Is there dirt on him?

9

Doc, you wanted to hear what is drawing college aged young folks to Sanders' campaign:

https://reason.com/blog/2016/02/05/new-hampshire-students-democratic-debate

I present it, not for the commentary from the author of the piece (it has an obvious political viewpoint), but for the quotes from the students at UNH that they interviewed.  I think it is representative of what most of the young people at my place of employment (a young, hungry start-up meteorology firm mostly populated by employees much younger than me) are saying about Sanders.

10

I just do not believe that this is the case, at least for the vast majority of legislators.  I've known more than my share (state and federal), still do, on both sides of the aisle, and I just don't find folks in those offices who are beholden enough to financial backers to do their nefarious bidding.  Even when I disagree with them, I'm not blaming it on some shadowy cabal.  It is a cheap trick for other candidates to do so and then say the lack of evidence highlights the mysterious power of that unseen cabal.  Amn, this is the Illuminati thing, brought forward into the modern age.

Hey, if you're a Republican you likely believe in such things as the 2nd Amendment (with reasonable limitations) and free market.  You likely vote, when the option arises, in a way that tends to supports those beliefs.  Why wouldn't you?  Folks who share those opinions are more likely to support you, both financially and with the vote.But that doesn't mean you've been bought.  It just doesn't work that way, generally.

Ditto for Democrats and the environmental lobby, trial lawyers and the abortion industry...and all their supporters. 

But elected officials have no less principle than you or I, and quite often have  more than some of the general hoi polloi.

It offends me when any candidate, Republican, Democrat or loony Socialist (tongue in cheek) levels that accusation against the entire congress then is unable to come up with even one specific example.

Democrats vote the Democratic line (often) because they are Democrats....not because George Soros pays them off.  Ditto the GOP and the Kochs.

I don't know why we expect congress to cross the aisle a whole bunch.  When they do, it often isn't the power of an idea but  the power of a personality (Oval Office/Speaker/Majority Leader) that gets them there.  

See Lyndon Johnson on the above.

11

I can't agree with your conclusions here, Moe. I've dealt with US Senators from both parties (and their political machines) and they were definately bought & paid for on some issues. Did they change their votes due to campaign donations? Not that I saw, true. Could they get the $$ needed to run a campaign without signing off on a host of policies and model legislation that directly benefit the folks that fund the campaigns? Nope, not in most cases. Senators and Congressmen spend more time fund raising than they spend doing their actual job. The people and corporations giving the big $$ aren't doing it for altruistic reasons - they are doing it because the ROI on that spend is very, very high. There are exceptions, of course. 

Does the revolving door between a Senator's staff and the organizations that lobby them influence legislation? Absolutely. 'Cause it's the staff that writes the ammendments and the loopholes that get snuck into the 2,000+ page bills that both parties love. Deliver big tax subsidies to an industry and you WILL have lucrative job opportunities with a trade group that represents that industry. Special bonus points if you can spin that wheel a few times, going from staff to lobbying group back to staff and back  lobbying.  

Money absolutely has an impact - and a major one - on legislation. In some cases, it drives legislation. That's especially true on the thousands of tax loopholes, special protections and the like that are snuck into bills in the dark of the night.  

12
Seattle Outsider's picture

It's all about the money. I get the feeling on both sides of the aisle that the "common people" (or "we the people" on the right) are tired of big powers control our country (whether corporate on the left or government on the right). A few controlling the policy of the nation to benefit themselves. Free trade deals are seen as cheap goods and services from large corporate owners, taking away jobs from the average American. Piles of profits following loopholes made by Congress out of American coffers and into the pockets of the powerful, with politicians that play along on both sides. There is a growing opinion in this country that the deck is not stacked fairly (both right and left point out different instances of this) - so it is not about what level of poverty you have relative to the rich and powerful. It is about a perceived notion that the common folk are not as important or valuable. Commit theft as a rich man? Slap on the wrist and a fine. Commit theft as a poor man? Welcome to jail. Want into the best schools? It helps if your dad went there and also sent you to the best preschool money can buy (or it helps it you are a minority in the opinion of the right). Executive of a large company? Enjoy numerous tax benefits, earn a giant bonus by moving and automating the jobs on the bottom of the period or through deceiving marketing/sales. Average worker? See your job shipped overseas, ask for a raise and be called ungrateful, lose you job and land on welfare and be called a parasite.                This is not a statement of facts, it is a statement of perception. So what we're seeing in American politics right now is the anti-establishment candidates swelling in popularity on both sides. Whoever has been in charge ain't doing it right (both sides), so elect someone who hasn't been in charge. Hence, Bernie on the left, Trump/Cruz/et al in the right:

 

 

13

Amen, brother.

How few people make the connection between Bernie's supporters and Trump's.  Both are channeling Howard Beale: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

Doesn't matter that some are humanities students at a small college...and the others are steel workers with bad knees facing a retirement with no pension.  They both understand the system is rigged against them.

Picture for a minute a political movement that unites the two.  It boggles the mind.  

14

...is actually less the tax loopholes (though it's definitely there too), as it is the regulations.  Monied interests are doing most of their work trying to defeat a regulation that hurts their bottom line or trying to get a regulation passed that hurts their competitors' bottom lines.

15

Why shouldn't an Exxon or Sierra Club or Planned Parenthood or the NRA lobby to defeat a bill that they don't support?  Should they just go meekly into the sunset and accept it?  Why should they?  If they shouldn't, then how should they appropriately oppose such legislation?   

16

USPIRG annoys the heck out of me with there emails explaining how eeeeeevil dark money is destroying democracy and how bad lobbyists are etc.  I don't believe it's bad to lobby and I don't believe it's bad to use money to bolster your message.  What I believe is bad is that our lawmakers have no idea what they're voting for...they only know what their friends in the lobbies and such tell them about the bills they vote on.  I favor Mia Love's bill that would ban congress from voting on any bill that is about more than one subject at a time.  Your congresscritter should know what is in a bill before he votes...you the voter should know what's in it so you have time to raise your voice if you think it's bad law.  The media should know what's in the bill.  But these bills get written behind closed doors, trotted out before the congress and voted on and when members of congress debate them, they haven't the slightest clue what language is actually in any of them.

17

But why couldn't they just get support from the folks that support other policies and legislation?  Those guys exist, too.  And I agree that the folks that contribute to campaigns aren't doing it for altruistic reasons, they are doing it because they support the positions of that candidate, not because they own them.  

Hey, you and I can contribute a total of $2,700 to any federal candidate per election.  Which one of our legislators is being bought by my $2700?  The National Party can give $5000, ditto PACs.

Citizens United and SpeechNow vs. FERC allowed groups and individuals to expend funds "independent" of political campaigns.  

Are these the funds that are "buying" federal officeholders?

Why shouldn't a senator from Iowa support ethanol subsides?  Is he or she "bought" if they do, or are they just going to bat for their own electorate?

I do not dispute that money impacts politics, it does.  But it also allows for the dissimnation of information to a voting public that is all too often unable or unwilling to vote in an informed and intelligent fashion.

Oregon has two liberal to very liberal US Senators (caveat:  I know them both, from the other side of the aisle.  One has been into my classroom and spoken to my seniors)  Do they represent liberal interests because they are bought or are they elected in a liberal to very liberal state because they share the political leanings of most of the voting population?

I would prefer you blame the voter rather than vast right-left wing conspiracies.

Moe

18

Is far more interesting to me, than the vague charges that I hear coming from (say) my niece, bless her soul.

All the difference in the world, complaints about the military's culture if they come from (a) a citizen or (b) a Servicemember.

19

Does Marco Rubio pair up with the NRA, vs. the ACLU, because that's where he wants to go with his policies?  Or does he simply wait for offers to roll in, pro-gun or anti-gun, and wind up legislating based on that?

My *assumption* is that these people 80%, 90% of the time are taking money from interests they would be pushing anyway.  True, they can wind up down a blind alley where they owe the interests more than they'd bargained for.

Good stuff Grizz.

20

The appeal of Bernie is the result of two things: 1) a general frustration with the establishment and 2) a specific disliking of Hillary. And yes, the establishment had no clue at how angry at it people are. That's why the establishment thought it could shove Jeb Bush down the Republican voters throat even though they don't want him at all.

21

Votes cast by Millennials (aged 30 and under):

1) Sanders (13,000)

2) Trump (6500)

3) Cruz (6000)

4) Rubio (5000)

5) Hillary (4000)

Pulled from an analysis done by Real Clear Politics yesteray.

Hillary has an ENORMOUS problem with millennials...if she is the nominee, their turnout will crater.

22
jokestar's picture

Total up the votes for each party and they're within 500 votes. Trump, the baffoon, my words, uses belligerence and makes statements without any facts to back them up, like when he accused his parties winner of cheating to win the Iowa caucases. Cruz, the winner in Iowa, has no qualms about shutting the government down because he and his minority didn't get their way. Which leaves us with Rubio, who seems to have a hard time making it to work, as he's missed several committee meetings since he was elected. I'm not saying that the democrats are any better, but if you have a liberal bent, I don't see you running to the conservative side if Sanders isn't nominated. Plus, they've already commited to the process so , while some may drop out, I don't see the them abandoning the liberals en masse.

23
M's Watcher's picture

I considered myself a conservative Republican for years, both socially and fiscally.  I find this year's batch to be insincere in their social values, pandering to get the Christian Fundamentalist vote, but nowhere close to walking the walk themselves.  Fiscally, the GOP abandoned fiscal conservatism with unfunded wars under W, and have never returned.

I voted for my first Dem President (Obama) after McCain nominated Palin as running mate.  I saw his choice as a serious error in judgement of the sort unsuited for anyone seeking the presidency.  Of course, I ended up regretting my choice, though not that we really had another to make.  

If the election were held today, I'd vote for Sanders.  I disagree with him on many social issues that I consider important.  However, I have experienced the greed of corporate execs first hand, and conclude that trickle down economics only works if those above us are generous and benevolent.  In general, they are not.  I heartily agree with Sanders on getting the big money out of our elections.  They should not be bought.  I am impressed with his many, small amount contributors vs. those politicians owned by Wall Street and PACs.  Sanders supports saving SS by scrapping the cap, which I supported before his candidacy.  It is the only solution that would resolve the perceived shortfall without cutting benefits of the most vulnerable.  The GOP only wants to reduce these earned benefits through increased full retirement age, reduced COLAs, and means testing.   

Healthcare is a big deal, if you haven't noticed with Obamacare.  It did nothing to reduce the costs, but added many unisured to the rolls, and required our participation.  Now we have high premiums, and other than preventive care, we pay most expenses out of pocket up to some high annual maximum.  It can be unaffordable even to those insured.  Say what you like or not about single payer, but it would cut the insurance bureaucracy out of the equation.  What Bernie claims will happen with health care costs may be true, but none of the others have offered a viable alternative.  Just see if a President Sanders would convince a GOP Congress to repeal Obamacare in favor of single payer.  Both win, and just maybe we would also. 

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tjm's picture

I'm with Moe on this. I've worked in political campaigns, covered state legislatures in three states, covered three presidential elections in the US, a few more in Asia, and just don't see the level of cynicism implied by the idea that politicians do everything for money. Some do, of course, but for the majority it is closer to the opposite. A Speaker of the House in a state legislature told me once that when he was first elected he had one goal: I have the truth and I came to deliver it.

Most politicians at least start at this end of the spectrum. They get tarnished a bit, some more than a bit, but most never go full bore the other way. They almost all end up somewhere in the middle; they do some things they feel they have to but generally act according to their beliefs not their polls. I worked for a guy one time who when he got poll results that didn't coincide with his beliefs would, rather than change his vote, fire the pollster. Most politicians genuinely care about their jobs and their country. I personally think George W. Bush was the worst president of my lifetime and the invasion of Iraq the worst foreign policy decision in American history, but I don't doubt for a second he was completely sincere and patriotic. 

A sidenote on Matt's numbers: He's absolutely right. Clinton lost 18 to 29 year old voters to Sanders by 84 to 13 percent. This would be a huge problem in November if she gets there.

And yes, Saunders' appeal is primarily not ideological but a sort of protest. The first three elections I was able to vote, I didn't vote for a presidential candidate who finshed higher than fourth. But, of course, I vote for losers. I'm a Mariner fan.

25

You have more up close and personal experience with the world of Washington than I do, so I respect your insight.

Tell me this, though.  Why do politicians campaign every term on simplifying the tax code and then do absolutely diddly-doodle to simplify the tax code?  That's a BIPARTISAN desire for end loopholes and simplifying the code to make it easier to collect taxes and to file them.  Why don't they fix this?  70k pages of code...should be about 5.  It isn't because, IMHO, it benefits the wealthy for it to be complex.  That is what I see when I look at Washington...that and the ridiculously byzantine regulatory state...a woman who wants to braid hair must take an incredible 1500 hours (!!!!) of course work and earn a certificate to do it.  I don't think it is so much that they come into the job and then get bought out...I think they blieve they are doing good by making the right friends...they believe what those friends tell them about the good their votes are doing.  But I believe those friends...the PACs and lobbists and power brokers...have an enormous influence.

26
lr's picture

As I see it being presented, is that *money + politics is bad recipe for American democracy. I don't see Sanders message as one that implies every single elected official always votes one way or the other solely because of where the money comes from. I think it's a slight misreading of his message to get that out of what he is saying. One of the 2 or 3 core tenets of his campaign from day one is campaign finance reform. I think we can all agree that Super PAC's concentrate the will of those with the most money into the largest and loudest megaphones, which in turn unfairly influences the outcomes of elections. I think we can all agree that SOME politicians absolutely are directly influenced by lobbyists. So if we can all agree that special interest group money + politics = bad as a core general principle, why split hairs and say, well not all politicians change their positions because of money, or not all elected officials draft policies based on who writes the checks for their campaign.

Am curious, what percentage of all the Senators and the members of the House of Representatives would you put in the "has been influenced in any way by lobbyist money" basket? 5%? 25%? 65%? 90%? Let's poll the American people and see what they think lol.

If you haven't already, I think everyone should read Capitol Punishment by Jack Abramoff for a sense of the scope of influence money has in politics.

27

... up until your conclusion, "So we can agree that money* + politics = bad."  Not sure the valid conclusion follows from the (true) premises; perhaps we've merely reached a tipping point on a [special interest money + politics] continuum.

But yeah.  To the extent Sanders can get anything moving on huge special-interest money and influence, I'm cheering him on.  Similarly, to the extent Trump can get anything moving on resistance to radical Islam, I'm cheering him too.

....

The Abramoff book sounds like an ominous one.  Not sure I've got the stomach for it ...

....

LR, if you could very briefly lay out your model for Campaign Finance Reform, would love to see it.  Might be a good KK stub too, us having Moe and Grizzly and TJM and OKDan here.

28

In the wake of Watergate, Congress tried to rein in the filthy influence of money on politics because businessman W. Clement Stone had donated two million dollars to a candidate.  In today's dollars, that equates to $11m.

Right now the Koch Brothers, through unlimited Super PACs, have $889m in today's dollars to spend.

That's the difference. 

29

By my count, that makes you, Grizzly, and Moe who have been there and done that, and your observations are priceless.

Big finish there, too :- )

30

Terry, do you want to bullet-list, just real briefly, why you believe W. to be the worst President since who ... you're saying at least since Truman?

I assume you're not talking about simple belief systems -- that a guy is a good or bad President because he's pro-life or pro-choice -- but that on an operational / decisionmaking level, his competence was unacceptable.

31
tjm's picture

Domestically, he inherited a balanced budget from the spendthrift Democrats and promptly blew a giant hole in it by cutting taxes with no evident way of replacing the revenue and no will to cut expenditures. In fact, he vastly increased expenditures almost across-the-board. See, for example, Medicare Part D. He also enable the construction of a surveilance state that looks to remain with us for the foreseeable future.

My objection here is not his ideology per se. In fact, would a real conservative have turned a balanced budget into a giant sucking wound. And would he have built the means to spy on almost everything almost every American does? 

In foreign policy, the ignorance and hubris of the Iraq War was colossal. He destabilized the Middle East in a way that hasn't been equaled since before the Ottoman Empire. I spent most of 2002-2005 in the Mideast and southwest Asia. It's hard to exagerate the extent to which the Iraq invasion squandered the good will people in the region felt for the US. It was an opportunity to make common cause, not war. As a side benefit, it encouraged the metastasis of radical Islam, creating among other things ISIS. Whoops. My bad. Even the justified war, Afghanistan, was bungled by turning away at the crucial points to concentrate on Iraq.

Do I need to mention the torture regime? Which, as has been amply demonstrated, produced almost no worthwhile intelligence and made us international pariahs. If you don't honor American ideals in the breech, then what difference does it make what you say about how you embrace them when it's easy.

Let's not forget that oil prices went from $35 per barrel to over $100. Almost every penny that Americans paid in higher prices at the pump and elsewhere went into the pockets of some of the worst dictators in the world.

I could go on, but I'm getting all hot and bothered.

32

Every time congress votes on a piece of legislation these days, there's at least a 50% chance that that bill is over 500 pages long and that none of them have actually read it.  Why do they take the emotionally-charged positions that they take on a bill if they haven't read it and have no idea what it does?

Their lobbyist friends and their business contacts and their strategists are TELLING them what the bill does...and they're voting on THAT.  And that...is how Washington is bought and paid for.  Not because politicians aren't trying to vote their conscience...but because they have absolutely no idea what they're voting on.

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tjm's picture

When Ronald Reagan proposed a complete re-write of the tax code in 1986, his fellow Republican and head of the Senate tax-writing committee, Bob Packwood, responded: I kinda like the tax code just the way it is.

The tax code is used for a lot of things that have nothing to do with taxes. To help poor families, to promote alternative energy, to build bridges, to promote diversity, to grow food, etc., etc. That's a major reason why it's as ungainly as it is.  It's also true that it is filled sith special interest provisions protected by often just one US senator or powerful congressman. Many of these do benefit particular interests, often businesses who profit from them but also provide jobs for constituents of the representative protecting the provision. Scoop Jackson was not called the senator from Boeing for no reason. He protected Boeing jobs like a lion.

This does not, to be sure, result in a set of laws that are completely rational. Nor does it mean there ought not be reform. Just trying to explain why that reform is so hard to come by. I would bet that the military commands would cut at least a third of the Defense budget because it funds stuff they don't want or need. Take a look at the VTOL Osprey aircraft for example. It falls out of the sky with frightening regularity and has no obvious mission, but contracts to build it are spread across dozens of states.

34
tjm's picture

Just as a point of information, Doc. The DNC and RNC have very little influence on presidential primary campaigns, especially so on who should or shouldn't run. Their primary ability is financial and they don't usually give money in primaries. They do have impact in setting the ground rules for primaries but even there their influence is muted by the states. They have much more impact on general election campaigns and on congressional races, where they can give a lot of money.

Modern individual presidential campaigns are pretty insular. They do more or less what they want and what they think will help them attract votes. Pretty sure the Obama campaign in 2008 looked at the DNC the way Apple looks at GM - future road kill.

35

So when they say on the talk shows, "Hillary stepped back on the understanding that she would be next in line after Obama," who was this understanding reached with?

It's a nebulous area for me.  With whom, exactly, is this "line of priority" recorded?

38

I'm all for a Flat Tax on individuals with an elimination of all deductions.  Well, I think I might allow two to stay, but two becomes four becomes eight....and so on.

Such a tax is as simple as it gets.  But I have good friends, Democrats, who wish to "simplify" the code in a way that is way more progressive than the code we have today.  They also want certain deductions retained.  And they want to raise corporate taxes.

So what does "simplify" mean?  Everybody wants to "simplify," but the meaning of that term is where folks get hung up.  The devil is in the details.

Matt, I do agree with your point about the length of bills.  I also hate huge omnibus packages.  Were I to make one change to Congress, I would require that they have adopted a full fiscal year budget by the beginning of the fiscal year, or begin to forfeit pay proportionally. 

I hate this continuing resolution stuff.  

Sigh,

but we do get the congress we vote for.  Years ago some congressional observer noticed that we tend to think OUR Senators and Representatives are doing fine jobs, but it's the other guys/gals who are no good so-and-so's.  

Sigh, again.

39

Every time the two parties start negotiating on a point like this -- let's say, "Cap individual salaries at $20M/yr so the rookies can make more," the MLBPA protests that it is ONLY a ruse to slide money from the players to the owners.  ALWAYS.

It seems there is hardly such a thing as negotiation simply for the good of the industry.  It's always a thinly-veiled competition for dollars to OUR side.

40

As a first-time voter in 1968, I could not have been a more enthusiastic supporter of Gene McCarthy.  That also held true for ALL of my friends.  However you observe college/youth support for Bernie, think an order of magnitude higher back then.  It was astounding.

The commonality the two eras have is issue appeal, plain and simple.  Bernie woud have no more of less support (IMO) if he called himself a Martian rather than a socialist.   Even the young poly sci majors may not be able to define what socialism is.  It doesn't matter what he looks like, or how old he is.  

Back then, the Vietnam war threatened every young person.  They already knew many who had been drafted...some who had already come back physically or phsychologically damaged...and even some who never came back at all.  It was not uncommon.  We did not want our friends killed.  And we did not want to be killed.  Pretty simple.  Didn't matter what old men said about the threat of Communism and the domino theory...what they said about the nefarious nature of the North Vietnamese...what they said about America's role in the world.  Just leave us alone.

What is resonating now (as Vietnam did for McCarthy back then) is also the reality of what directly impacts Bernie's yound supporters. I can't imagine their reality--but I can hear them tell it.  What sense did it make to take on a six figure college debt when no one will hire them--at least at a rate that opens the reality of EVER paying back that amount?  Society tut-tuts at all the young millionaires on Wall Street and in Silicon Valley, while the other 98% are hitting brick walls.  Microsoft tells them, we won't hire you as an employee, but we might as a contractor--poof goes the health care and paid time off.  Boeing says we might hire you...but you're not going to get the same deal your Dad did--and by the way, we're shipping your job off to South Cariolina.  The government says, yeah, we will pay your Social Security (we hope)...but you're going to have to work a year or two longer to get it.  

Now, for all the rabid Hillary haters, there is a silver lining here.  When McCarthy did not win the nomination, many young people just went hope and sulked.  Humphrey wasn't our idea of a hero.  He was standing watching from the top floor penthouse of the Hilton Hotel on south Michigan Avenue while the police used night sticks to beat the heads of protestors below him.  

Will that kind of thing happen again?  Well, I don't think Bernie has a chance to win the nomination.  But Hillary has to make sure he winds up as her friend and endorser...and takes up his cudgel against Big Money.  The kids know the system is rigged, and she has to own that.  That's her path to victory.

41
RockiesJeff's picture

Excellent thoughts again. Sharp group in here you have collected Jeff! For what it is worth from the frigid mountains, humanity yearns for utopia but no human invention will ever solve the greatest issue at hand, humanity itself....the heart of the problem or the problem of the human heart. Captialism will crumble from within if there is endless greed. If the stock market crashes don't blame famine or lack or resources. Self-imposed? Politics of equality or socialism will crumble in time as that same greed eventually destroys. Youth often is seduced into thinking there must be easy answers. Been there/done that. But in time, from seeing first hand and teaching secretly behind the Iron Curtain, living in Miami and having good friends who lost family members dirctly at the hands of Castro....even teaching in the land of the long-weekend in Australia. I don't want to sound totally negative but the quest for an equal utopia, history proves, won't be in the end what it was meant to be. Sins of greed destroy a society. So do the sins of laziness. I believe in responsible hard work. I also believe in responsible benevolence. Put those two together and we should do right shouldn't we? Ah....but that balance is a hard thing to hold onto isn't it?

 

 

42

There are malignant forces about.  Always have been, always will be.  Education and intelligence are not going to 'evolve' us past that, in my view.  Latest example, Europe's attempt to lead Islam into enlightenment through tolerance and multiculturalism.  How's that going for them?

The humanist utopia is a pleasant dream, but not an attainable one.  Any system that hopes to fix problems must first come to grips with the depth of evil in the world.

My $0.02.  But you said it better Jeff :- )

43

Utopia will never exist.  Those malignant forces will always be present.

But isn't every one of us here the recipient of the very best break in history--to be born into a country where the 'utopians' formed a government that is better than anything ever created before?  How do you get any luckier?

And the battle over the next steps is not just logical--in my mind, it's an obligation.  It's our responsibility to argue here (and everywhere else) as to what we should do next to move the founders' vision forward.  We owe that to them!

44
RockiesJeff's picture

Exactly! I don't mean to sound like since there is never going to be a utopia we do nothing? Forgive my typing quickly if it sounded as such. What amazes me is that we have been blessed here in the country beyond measure when compared to the entirety of human history. Travel around our world and it is self-evident. What I don't understand is that if we have been given so much, should we not then pay attention to the reasons/purposes for which this nation was founded? And look at what has been the result when we got away from their original intentions. They were imperfect humans like all of us...and they then used that reality to be foundational for our good. To just throw that all away is a scary arrgoance to me.

 

45
RockiesJeff's picture

Our dollars have long lost their worth.  But your $0.02? Real value! The Solomon of Diamond Talk is appreciated by all!!!

"malignant forces" = Love your phrases!

 

46

i remember when this topic came up before on a long forgotten thread, and when Matt weighed in (as he has above), I found myself nodding my head and saying, "right!"  (No offense, Matt, but this doesn't happen that often! :)  )

I can not recommend strongly enough a new book called Dark Money by Jane Mayer.  I think conservatives may look at the book jacket at first glance and say, "oh yeah, Koch brothers again, whatever...".  But I'm thinking maybe both Matt and I would strongly endorse it? 

It really is an outstanding history book in its own right.  I'm only half way through, so I can't give any final conclusions.  Maybe some would say it was just left wing propaganda (although at this point it seems entirely non-partisan and non-screechy.) But I can't imagine anyone reading it and not feeling substantially more educated on how money influences politics in America.  

Three thumbs up (as if that were possible...)

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