Comfortable AB's
Tacoma Rain takes the board deep!

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=== Tacoma Rain Sez ===

I just do not think cutting a couple marginal players gets you bad karma. Doc and Moe are correct in that there must be something else missing... 

What I do see though is that EVERY team the Mariners play seem to have most of their batters at peace when they are in the batters box. All these teams have a majority of their players almost in a zen like state of see ball - hit ball.

Ackley has 40% chance at best currently of putting a hanging slider in play, and much less hitting it to the wall. Seagar is trying to make sure he hits every fast ball thrown, so he does not have to try hitting anything off speed ...

On the flip side, every team we face knows ALL the Mariner pitchers are throwing strikes. Our philosophy is not to WALK ANYONE. If you know that as a hitter, you dig in your back foot, you lean in to make sure you reach the outside corner, and especially the last week, you look for the mistake pitches that are up... and you just crush the ball. There is nothing that scares you about facing the Mariners pitching staff.

I do think we need to throw inside a LOT MORE, and get opposing players moving their feet away from the plate. Ya know... add some Ron Villone or Drysdale to your pitching diet. Now maybe this is where a Shoppach catching may help, but Montero is not too young to learn.
For what ever it is worth, I do remember that during Felix's great stretch last year that Felix hit Ichiro, Jeter and A-Rod all in the same game...and I think we won.

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=== Detecto-O-Vision Crunch ===

 

Fascinating point by Rain, and it goes to the most systemic level possible.

On Thursday night, Grimm didn't really know where the ball was going.  But somewhow, the Mariners failed to punish him for all the 2-0 counts.  But there you go, exactly what you're talking about Tacoma Rain, the Mariners having less "comfortable" AB's than the enemy.

Perhaps because the M's emphasize SP's who can command the ball, as opposed to pitchers with great stuff?  Blake Beavan is a whale of a more comfortable AB than would be James Paxton.

Time and time again, the Mariners select pitchers who know where their own pitches are going.  Here comes another one, Aaron Harang.

Obviously Hisashi Iwakuma is wayyyyyyyy over into the "predictable command" category.  He has yet to walk a batter this year.  Joe Saunders' walk rate last year was 2.01.  Blake Beavan somehow moved way to the front of the line over far-more talented pitchers.  

When it came time to select between Erasmo Ramirez and the Big Three, the M's went with the kid who knows where the ball is going.  Kelly Gaffney has pointed this org bias out several times; Tacoma Rain now extends this insight, asking if it explains the karmic flow of the games we're seeing.

Taijuan, KPax, and Hultzen aren't going to be up until they give us comfortable AB's.  Thing is, they will then be providing comfortable AB's to enemy batters, too.

.............

In contrast, the Rangers put Justin Grimm, a white-knuckle kid in there against Felix Hernandez, a kid with good stuff and dubious control ... and their #5 starter beat Felix.

That's not an isolated case.  Derek Holland and Matt Harrison, when they first came up, were works in progress as it pertained to command of their own stuff.  Yu Darvish walked over 4 men per game last year.

The Rangers are not afraid to put a starting pitcher out there who feels a little bit white-knuckle, as long as the kid has the stuff to whiff his way out of trouble.

..............

The thing is, if we insist on pitchers who give US comfortable at-bats, what are the enemy batters getting?

This may even apply to Felix a little bit.  His 2nd and 3rd starts were frustrating.  Maybe batters are getting into too soft a rhythm, even with Felix.

If true, this aspect of M's games might explain all of the weird vibe I'm getting from the game flow.  Maybe it's not a karma thing or a confidence thing; maybe it's just a pitch-predictability thing.  Maybe the opponent looks more "in synch" than us because able to establish a rhythm against we have, after Felix, an entire rotation filled with cruddy stuff and reliable location.

.................

Rain's got a point here.  Enemy batters are getting nothing but comfortable AB's against M's pitchers.  It's a whale of an insight on his part.

Blog: 

Comments

1

Unlike Grimm. Funny...for some reason Giant TV screen did show every deadly enemy shot by the Rangers. And Felix was certainly getting a lot of plate with his tatered pitches. Apparently, no one cares about Felix's feelings about having HIS mistakes shown on the big screen. Andino's bobble - not a peep. Ibanez? Hey, you guys saw it live, ain't that good enough? Felix hanging a slider - let's go to the videotape!
Hang in there, guys, I will stop ranting eventually.

2
misterjonez's picture

are too comfortable/respectful/passive since 2002. Ever since every. Single. Lefty masher annihilated us at home, I have been screaming for chin music and brushbacks, but we never throw them.
I have a simple solution, however: Roger Clemen or Randy Johnson for pitching coach. Jamie Moyer might be ok at this particular facet, as well. We need a little snarl out of our pitchers, ala Arthur Rhodes.

3

I think Montero's pitch sequences are a huge chunk of the problem causing the comfortable ABs. While it is true that the Mariners have a lot of guys on staff that do not walk many batters...they are, nonetheless, doing just fine on their K rates. The problem can't be that they aren't missing bats and that batters are finding it easy to hit them due to too many strikes...if that were the case, every Mariner would have Verlander 2006 syndrome - big stuff, tiny K rate.
No...I have been watching Montero's pitch sequences...I think Montero is calling an MLB (TM) zeroeth-order game.
On first pitches, he calls the pitch that is most likely to get him to 0-1 (for Felix, that's the sinking change, for Saunders, a located fastball, for Iwakuma, a straight change or located fastball)...if the pitcher misses, he calls the same pitch again, hoping to get to 1-1. If the Pitcher gets ahead 0-1, he calls a different pitch...either changing location or changing pitch type, but generally, it's the pitcher's second-most-reliable offering. For Felix, that's the 4-seamer, for Saunders, the slurve, etc.
On 2-0 or 3-0 counts, he stays away and calls for a located fastball. On 0-2 counts, he always...ALWAYS calls something bendy. Seriously...if you look at his count called rates, his FB% on 0-2 would be like 11% of something.
This is BRAINDEAD...it's no different than Brandon League...and it's really easy for the opposing hitters to know what's coming. You know how I know it's easy? Because I can do it myself. On 0-2 against Carlos Pena in that disaster start for Maurer, I said, "he's behind on the fastball...looking feeble...he should call another one up and away, but he's going to call the slider"...he called the slider, sped up Pena's bat...easy double...and easy call for me.
I think Montero's pitch calling is bad...very bad...and I think that is a huge chunk of the problem.

4
SeattleNative57's picture

Why isn't Wedge calling pitches from the dugout? It's not unheard of, and in fact, this seems like the perfect time for it. Who's going to object? Montero? Not likely. The pitchers, maybe. But this should be right in Wedge's wheelhouse. He can't be satisfied with these results and he must know the reasons.

5
Lonnie of MC's picture

Here I was thinking that it was just me that thought Montero was making things very predictable for opposing batters! The proof was on Tuesday when Maurer got manhandled. Didn't it seem like the Astros knew what pitch was coming in that first inning? Could it possibly be that they were just working the odds and were coming up winners? You betcha!

6
Lonnie of MC's picture

... or someone else was calling the pitch sequences in Joe Saunders second start. We will either see more of that or more of Kelly Shoppach.

7

We welcome the new posters! ... SSI is a language-free zone, but on the plus side, it's a zone in which you can say anything you want.  Up to and including that the authors are idiots.
Like America.  You can express any idea you want, substance not hindered, but style is hindered.
.............
Right Native - I think the last game or two, Wedge WAS calling pitches from the dugout.  Seems like there could be some disadvantages to that; it's tough for him to call location, and tough for him to read the batters' body language.
But yeah.  If it's a huge issue, he should take over the wheel, not let the rookie drive and then stew over the car wreck.  Agreed.

8
M's Watcher's picture

It appears that Montero went to lazy catcher school under Olivo, or he already had that schooling with NY or earlier. It is exemplified by his lazy backhanded attempts to catch pitches down and away, rather than moving his body in front of them. I don't think it is a (racist) latin cultural thing. I don't think there is a great history of Venezuelan defensive catchers. Olivo is from the DR, as was Tony Pena. PR put our some great ones, like Pudge, Benito Santiago, and the Molinas. Clearly it is not a latin catcher thing. It is just laziness. I had hoped that Montero would show himself as a serviceable catcher and a big bat to maximize value here or in trade elsewhere. Now I am just looking forward to Zunino's promotion, and hope that Montero finds a good spot somewhere in the lineup mix. Our one year rentals may mostly be gone by next year, and the kids need to step up. Being a lazy catcher doesn't help his cause or the team's. Not hitting doesn't help either.

9

You know...the one thing that surprises me about all of the moves we've made...it sure seems like Zduriencik acquired a bunch of big talents that don't have "it" - that mental edge...that attitude that gives them the ability to adjust, learn, thrive...that drive to be a little better today than they were yesterday.
Jesus Montero is the modern rendition of Rey Quinones, if you ask me. A lazy, fat, unathletic player without the mind or discipline to harness enormous natural talents.
If anyone in baseball can be suckered into thinking he is still worth something based on his talent and pedigree alone...trade him. Trade him before he comes to nothing.
The more I see him play...the less I like.

10

Matt,
What leads you to believe he's a lazy player?
I can't say he looks fat....certainly "solid," but not fleshy.
And...You say he is "unathletic", but has "enormous natural talents." There's a dichotomy there that begs for explanation. Is he "unathletic" merely because of his plodding speed?
moe

11

Dustin Ackley never hit under .400 in his college career.  NEVER. Did he have an injury struggle?  Yes - he had to switch to first base due to an arm injury, but he was able to keep that swing working, and was finally able to drive with power in his Junior year. But no one ever thought he would have a problem making contact in the bigs.
Jesus Montero demolished A-Ball at 18, laughed at A+ and AA at 19, and hit well at AAA at 20.  His minor league career line, through age 21, as a catcher, is .310/.365/.500.  I figured even if he had to move off position to first base that he could Konerko a long and successful career there.  He still might, actually.
How do you tell when someone will be satisfied with their level? It happened to Jose Lopez.
Montero has had focus questions dating back to the Yankees.  IIRC, they didn't like that he didn't grind on every at-bat or that his "heart wasn't in it" in AAA when he thought he should have been in the bigs.  Another reason I was suspicious of his terrible DH performances last year (he hit FINE as a catcher) and of drafting "the catcher of the future" in Zunino.
But Montero wants to catch, and Montero IS catching.  He's just not hitting in the first couple of weeks. That should change.  The problem is Zunino, who simply will not slow down on his ascent to the bigs - and the fact that Montero might actually be a bad catcher and not just a bad behind-the-plate thrower.  I don't care as much about the latter, but you've got to be able to handle a pitching staff as a catcher and make them comfortable.   He's not there yet, and if Zunino keeps this pace up Montero might not have a lot more time to get better at it.
What to do with Montero is a big question.  How to get our young core to actually produce is a HUGE question.
But then I guess the ultimate question is, "who is our young core?"
Saunders has found mental fortitude.  Seager's showed some.  Miller has a heart of solid gold, and Zunino is the sort that wrestles bears for sport during the offseason.
Could Ackley, Smoak and Montero ALL be false advertising?  Do they not have the heart to be champions?
I think it's too early to call that, but with Franklin at Ackley's spot, Romero able to play 3rd (and thus shift Seager to 2nd) and Zunino breathing down Montero's neck (which would force him to first if he stays) all of the "young core" currently on this team had better start finding heart and hunger, quickly.
~G

12

Matt, I wonder the same thing about Zduriencik's acquistions, at least the ones prior to this offseason (Morse and Morales see to have "it"). Wells didn't have it. Carp had briefly and then promptly lost it. Smoak had it for a month-plus his first full year and then lost it. Ackley had it and then lost it. Montero has yet to really show it. Seager showed it in flashes last year; we'll see if last night's big hit is a harbinger of things to come this year, because he hasn't had it so far. There reallyl isn't a single one of Z's offensive acquisitions that has enjoyed the kind of success where you feel hugely confident that you have a major cog in the wheel of perennial contention. And yet we keep hearing that he prefers dirt dogs who eat-live-sleep baseball. I don't know how to reconcile all that, and I hope it turns out to be just a blip on the radar as time goes on.

13

Natural talents include:
Raw power, good bat control, good size/solid frame, things like that. Montero has a ton of natural gifts. He just does absolutely nothing to be in shape. He's not exactly...fat...but he's certainly not firm and trim...he looks soft in the middle to me...and is painfully PAINFULLY uncoordinated and slow at everything he does. His reflexes are LOUSY. His footwork is LOUSY. His running is not just slow...it's LOUSY...sorry...that's what I call unathletic.
On top of that...he's lazy. He came to camp and Wedge said "well...he worked on his running but...he's not in shape...not really what we wanted to see..."
He doesn't hustle when a ball gets past him...he trots back to pick it up. He doesn't move his body to block pitches. He doesn't run as hard as he can...he doesn't slide half the time when he should on the bases. He doesn't take the initiative on pop-ups. And from what I can tell...he's made ZERO progress offensively. He's not learning the league or making any adjustments...in fact he's more susceptible now than he ever was to sucker pitches.
All marks of either baseball stupidity (sorry...it's just the best word to use to describe what I'm seeing) or laziness...neither of which is a quality I want to work around.

15

We may see a time this year when Montero is a platoon DH, perhaps with Smoak.

16

Well, there is one thing that Smoak, Ackley and Montero share in common - they were all rushed to the bigs without much time at AAA. If I'm the M's, no way in the hot place I'm rushing another position player to Seattle. Let Zunino, Miller and Romero finish in the minors.

18
EA's picture

I wonder at what point do you look at sending Ackley and Montero down to AAA and move them off their current positions. If Montero could focus on his hitting at 1B and Ackley working in LF then maybe they can find something again.

19

Offensive acquisitions for M's have not panned out well going back many years. Remember Kevin Mitchell? Once Safeco opened, it seemed to get worse, with a few minor exceptions....Ibanez, Carlos Guillen (although he got even better in Detroit). Role players like Stan Javier and Mark McLemore (when surrounded by real hitters), and Boone.
Same with draft picks. Ackely was the consensus best bat coming out. No one would have predicted him as a flop (he may yet NOT be, but at this point, I'm starting to wonder....)
I wouldn't put this on Z. I don't know where it starts, but Z hasn't been the only one.
Sure would have been nice not to have swept Oakland and lost out on Strasburg a few years back....but then again there's that M's karma thing. Oakland usually kills us by beating us, not by losing to us....

20
GLS's picture

Nice post. Seriously. I love it when I read something like this and find out something I didn't know or understand.

21

As to AAA experience:
I looked at all the starting lineup of the A's, currently with the best record in the league. The following numbers are each player's AAA games played (listed from C-DH)
Jas0 144
Moss 487
Sogard 254
Lowrie 126
Donaldson 252
Cespedes 3
Crisp 67
Reddick 184
Smith 198
Moss was a career AAA guy with Pitt/Philly/Boston until Beane saw something and grabbed him. Donaldson, was principally a C when he came up in '10...but got lots of 3B time in '11 and '12 in AAA. He's now a 3B.
For the M's "young guys", Montero has 232 AAA games, Smoak 128, Ackley 118, Saunders 173 and Seager 24.
Did Jaso not get enough AAA time? Jed Lowrie? Reddick? Crisp?
Would have 8 more games in AAA for Ackley, to get him to the Lowrie level, or 26 more to get him even with Jaso make him a better hitter? Unlikely.
Ackley got lost after a season of being up. I think the Wedge philosophy of hitting has whacked him. Smoak was just overrated, I think....by the whole baseball world. He's a 1400 AB continuing hopeful dream right now. Montero had plenty of AAA experience, lots. The scary thing about him is that in 422 career PA's against RHP, he only has 27 extra-base hits (6.4%...although it's a better stat if figured using AB's), and only walks 39 pts. Compare that to Brendan Ryan's career vR splits: He gets extra-bases 5.4% or the time and walks 60 pts.
Vs. righties, Montero = Ryan. Were he Johnny Bench or Pudge behind the plate, you might tolerate that.
Montero is still only 23. He has time to make a leap. But it surely appears that he's going to be a vL platoon type of guy. If that's the case, he needs to learn to play 1B and he will have a long career in the NL as a PH/1B/C type.
I'm not done with him yet, especially as our BU catcher. Probably the most valuable coaching he can get right now is if the M's work him with a terrific sprint coach. Really. He needs to learn how to run.
But it isn't a lack of AAA experience that's costing our young guys. It's a variety of things. Smoak can't hit enough to be a mid-level 1B or DH (although as a BU at those positions he has value). Montero is a platoon guy. Ackley has been coached into a dark place.
Remember when Ackley came up? We talked aloud about whether he would ever become a 20 homer guy. I think we settled on something like 15 homers and 40 doubles. I thought he was going to wear out the RF gap. What happened to that guy?
Anyway, mid-top line MLB talent probably always hurries it's way from AA to MLB.
moe

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