You know, the guy who brought in Milton Bradley. Wasn't his first, second, or third choice to be sure, but the guy was desperate for a bat. Did Bradley sabotage the clubhouse so much that it turned 2010 into the nightmare it became? Probably not - Figgins and Junior pretty much did that. Bradley seemed like more of a sideshow, something you just deal with, like Rodney's arrow shot, so long as it produces.
If Jesus is a jerk, who cares? Ignore it. He ain't running the team, he's not our catcher. He's a friggin DH, there to hit the snot out of the ball and nothing else. He's not there to lay down a bunt, play good defense, run the bases. There are guys in any company who aren't the best co-workers. But if they produce, they are good co-workers and the organization works around the other issues until, like Manny, you grow weary and let him go because others you do like, who produce as much or better, and who do feed the organization's esprit d'corps, have stepped in.
If Manny, er Montero, is still mashing by next week, and still doing it in Tacoma, that will be really hard for me to swallow.
.
I/O: The Mariners let leak that Montero "did himself no favors" with his attitude and actions during his last 5-game visit to Seattle.
I/O: Presumably the "actions" in reference were not Montero's .500 SLG and 120 OPS+ during this trip, which caused Corey Hart and others acute embarrassment.
I/O: Montero's hitting lately, in the PCL, is beyond insane. Here's the 1334 OPS+ the last two weeks.
I/O: Sometimes the Mariners have a little trouble scoring runs.
I/O: Some amigos point out this is occurring in the Rocky Mountains. (Does this mean we adjust it, or just ignore it?)
I/O: Mojo had a great line in the Shout Box. FKey7 (auto-insert daily). One might presume that Mojo does not freak out over antisocial attitudes.
I/O: A teammate also threw Montero under the bus, saying for public consumption "he just doesn't get it."
.......
Bill James wages a war, off-and-on, with the saberdogs who have run BJOL like crickets. Every team, he tries to tell them, factors personality into the clubhouse. Aren't there people at your workplace who cause you to perform your job better, or worse?
(It's just the last year, or two, that BJOL has followed-on SSI by alerting to the question, "What CAUSES players to have up or down years?" Recently Bill did a simply magnificent first-triangulation as to how this could be measured.)
........
There comes some point at which "Manny being Manny" costs him his job: usually when his SLG drops much below .600. :- ) Has Jesus Montero's attitude warranted this resentment by his teammates, even at cost of runs and wins?
I'm not there. I don't know.
I know what the media will tell us, which they would also tell us about Erik Bedard or any other player they don't personally care for. What we would need here would be :: cough :: a Geoff Baker type, somebody who will simply tell us what's going on without respect to his own personal feelings.
My guess is that we are talking about laziness and entitlement -- factors which were, after all, institutions for most historical Mariner teams. My guess is that about 15-20 other teams would happily work around Montero's laziness and entitlement, if they thought he made them better.
But I ain't there. Maybe the guy ruins the whole clubhouse. :: shrug :: could be.
.........
One thing we can tell you: Jack Zduriencik is well-and-truly ticked off at Jesus Montero. He thought he was getting Albert Pujols, but apparently Brian Cashman was four steps ahead of us and everybody else.
SO much of player projection is in makeup. Like Pat Gillick said: I won't sign a man until I've looked in his eye and shaken his hand. I think my own question here is, why wasn't the makeup assessed more carefully, prior to yielding Michael Pineda in trade.
..........
I know for a fact what would have been Bill James' question, in the 1995 Handbook. If a guy is going to hit 1334 in the PCL and then not be promoted, what is he doing there? Are you just providing him the chance to fail, or what?
You'd be surprised how often MLB(tm) teams do this: they put a player out there, and when he succeeds, they're stuck. It hits them, that subconsciously, they were trying to prove the player wrong. Remember when the M's brought Roberto Petagine into Arizona from Japan, and he hit .420 with a .700 SLG ... and then Hargrove gave him 1 AB the first 10 days?
The M's don't want Montero to fail, but they sure as shootin' are at a loss what to do with the kid.
Somebody else won't be,
Dr D
Comments
Doc, Moe will know this (and Moe wrote you back but it hasn't shown up on old thread) philosophy. I knew two brothers from Greece who started their own bank in Palm Springs because they got tired of getting up early to milk cows. They were very good golfers. They would never hire a person until they played 18 holes with them. They watched the person practice before, mannerisms on the course, and how engaged they were at lunch. If they could handle themselves selflessly and with class, they would be up for hire. Tempers or me me me....next please. Does Z play golf?
Ya, when did we go from "Milton Bradley and Carl Everett? What's the problem?" to "Hey, that benchie don't carry himself like Willie Bloomquist. Throw him a blanket party." On the other hand, they got something good going here. On the other other hand, John Buck didn't find that idea too relevant.
I thought I had a fairly unclear position; you took it and made it completely illegible.
Guy took me out for 18 at a VERY swanky course. Watched me like a hawk. Didn't know that I was watching him watch me. :- ) He hired me. Fortunately for him I actually am a nice guy.
;- )
.......
Ed Harrell once said, "Mark this down. If you can trust a man on a golf course, you can trust him anywhere in life."
How many "weekend warriors" play strict rules Moe?
.........
You da man Jeff :- ) Something tells me you'd be a VERY cool golf pardner.
It took them all 18 holes to figure that one out? Okay, maybe they were just having fun so the round continued but I would have hired you on the way to the first tee!!!
Golf? It would be fun to get out there one day!!!
True story: One time, a judge sentenced an entitled princess to 20 days in jail for her misdemeanor crime as well as her poor attidude towards police, the driving statutes, and the courts. After the hearing, and as judge had just left the court room, but while still in the court room, Princess called the judge a vulgar name. The bailiff told judge of the contempt, and expected instantaneous jail time for this affront to public decency. Judge told bailiff: "That's okay, this is is law. We don't have to send each other Christmas cards".
Did y'all see the All Star Game with Felix, Rodney and Cano all arm in arm and laughing at each other's jokes?
This is surprising. These guys spend half of their lives with each other, on plane trips, at meals, pregame, and at the games, and afterwards. You would think that they would have tired of each others' jokes a long time ago. No matter how funny Rodney is, you know he's told that joke before. Many many times. So why are Cano and Felix still listening to it?
Baseball is a little different than most jobs with difficult co-workers, because baseball players probably spend more than 100 hours per week with each other in rather tight quarters. Whoever you are, you probaby don't shower with your co-workers. So, attitude becomes a much bigger deal when times are already stressful and there isn't much space to go around.
But, what does Montero do, or not do that can't be made right by smashing left handed pitchers? The Tacoma Rainiers don't appear that unhappy. Winning makes the team happy, and they don't have to send Montero Christmas cards if they don't want to.
The point about Manny Ramirez becoming unbearable when his slugging dipped below .600 had me falling out of my chair. That's some good shtick.
Gillick was legendary at being absent from the corporate office, burning up miles, crisscrossing the country, missing Christmas with his family, to stay personally connected to players. John Schneider, by all accounts, has a similar approach. He is on the ground watching and talking with the players himself.
This hands-on, ground-level, workaholic approach yields a number of benefits (despite what it may do to a guy's family). One of the biggest ones - to which I attribute much of Gillick's success - is that the GM will get a sense of the personality of a player. And then he can determine if a high-performance player might dwindle in new circumstances, or if a low-performance player is just in the wrong environment. You build a stronger team by having compatible personalities and avoiding guys who just won't fit in.
Gillick would know exactly if Montero was a fit, or not, and he would either be trading him now, or have him up with the major league team.
One thing I recall reading about Schneider, is he often asks players about other players. IIRC this is part of why he acquired Chris Clemons, based on what other players said about him. It makes me think that this is still an under-used scouting tool. If I was the M's GM, and I was trying to decide which bat to go hard after, I'd ask Felix. Which of the three guys I'm looking at does he think is the toughest out? Recall that when Felix pitched to some minor leaguers in spring training a few years back, he singled out Kyle Seager as the toughest of the guys who faced him - he was impressed. That impression seems to have projected well.
The other one was the idiot coach on the Yankees who criticized Cano's hustle.
In both cases, Lloyd got gift-wrapped opportunities to tell every player on the team what he was about. "I will stand up for my players...but they've got to perform." Both sides of the statement proven with these two incidents.
It didn't matter whether Montero hit or not. He disrespected the organization by, in his own words, 'just eating' most of the winter. For that, he was banished. Was it because Lloyd didn't like him, or was [ticked] at him? I doubt it--Lloyd probably never exchanged a word with him before getting the job. I imagine him alone in his office smiling and saying, "thank you, Jesus!"
Has Montero's attitude/maturity changed in Tacoma? All Lloyd has to do is make one phone call to find out.
If so,Montero will probably come up. If not, his hitting won't matter.
As long as I get some tips on staying inside the ball :- )
.......
If I'm playing a lot -- 1x, 2x a week -- I might keep my score in the 90's. Or not. By chipping a 3-iron off the tee and using a 6-iron from 30 yards off the green :- )
Telling the princess story.
One of yer best, Counselor.
...............
I think that 100-hours thing factors in, no doubt. But slap me silly, baseball "lifers" gleefully ride that saw into 9,900 kinds of nepotism. And the worst are the recently-hired saberdudes... "GOTTA like the people you work with in baseball or your LIFE will be worthless" ...
Yeah. We all work in close quarters with the people at our office, dude.
But, somehow, without his own neck on the line, Pat's supernatural sense of projection didn't click quite so well...
........
That is so under-utilized, "asking players about players." Golden.
Prince of course being a guy that Jack courted, twice. Does Fielder fit the med description of "morbidly obese"? Does Josh Hamilton's substance control weigh less heavily than Montero's refusal to do his P90X?
Tough questions. I just don't understand -- don't *understand* why one thing offends, and the other doesn't. For sure I don't get why the eating thing is emphasized. Felix has had a significant issue with that, and with training.
Like we sez, we ain't there. Maybe Jesus Montero is insufferable to be around.
.........
The thing is, if Jesus Montero goes someplace, and balloons to 275 lbs., and hits .320 with 37 homers .... all anybody is going to ask is, "Why couldn't the Mariners get that out of him?" Whoever Montero really is, it's going to surface. The Mariners can lose with the gamble in either direction.
That's why Zduriencik makes the big bucks :- )
He's either the RH bat we've been missing and we find a way to get it out of him, or he's trade bait. It isn't possible to keep him forever, maybe one more season in Tacoma. Sell high, whenever that is. Other GMs must drool at his prospects, though maybe have scouted his personality/makeup in ways we didn't. It only take one, probably in the AL for DH, but the chubby ex-catcher can hit.
Absolutely,
When I was playing tournaments I used to watch good players on the range. Almost all went about their business in a clean, concise, efficient manner. The great guys were able to engage with other guys, then go quickly about their business without getting in their own way and in the way of others.
I don't have a clue how great a guy Montero is in the clubhouse or diligant he is during workouts. Indications are that he's not stellar at either, to say the least.
I'll buy in to the idea that he's an unpopular boob of a dude, as that seems to be the vibe coming in pretty loudly.
But I'll say this: either declare him toxic and sell him for a bag of balls or declare him a thumping bat that can help us chase the playoffs.
But delaring him a persona non grata is silly. Either use him or move him.
And Doc, I'll bet it is far less than 2% of the people who play the ball down (no bumping it) let alone play by the rest of the rules.
moe
Try being at sea with 550 people on a ship 564' long and 53' wide. Or with 5800 on one 1094' long, 255' wide on the flight deck (but 128' at the waterline). Then do it for 6 months at a time. Or in a 425' tube 33' in diameter with 140 others for 80 days without sunlight. No, people *learn* to get along. But knowing (and earning) your place helps. Kiss some rings, Jesus !
If there are that many people on an aircraft carrier, you might never meet all of them. That's like a small city! Point taken that people get along if they don't have any choice. C ' mon Montero, get your 'tude right. The team needs you.
When Griz kindly posted those links that I couldn't find, I was very grateful as I was hoping for everyone's read on those comments. I'm actually wondering if they served to help Montero actually "get it" to a degree, as his 2 week explosion has come after those comments... I may be recalling wrong, but didn't he start off the year at Tacoma hot as well, after he was sent "a message"? I am wondering if Montero is the kind of person that needs a constant kick to produce at his best (in contrast to the image in NY where he didn't work hard after being demoted to AAA).
After re-reading the comments above, I'm actually wondering if what they're trying to do is build trade value TO MOVE Montero. Maybe management WANTS to move him due to attitude problems, but recognizes that he has value in terms of talent (and thus want at least 50 cents for the dollar). Thus, they want someone to pick him up for "more than a bag of balls". That would explain the lack of major league playing time, but also unwillingness to just dump him. Just my 2 cents.