Seattle Sports Insider

Pineda's Elbow Level (2)

Posted by

1/14/11

Q. For instance?

A. Check this slo-mo link. You'll see the elbow bob prior to load. Here, let's see some photo captures from that vid:

This is the opposite of 'short-arming' -- Pineda unbends his elbow (he fully extends his arm to the center fielder). This creates leverage, whippiness, and lowers the amount of muscle force needed.

See DrMikeMarshall.com. Centrifugal force increases as the length of the arc (the distance the ball travels in backstroke) increases.

Pineda is oddly perpendicular to the batter as the ball faces the CF; more about that later.

Same pitch -- elbow pops up some, more with the left arm than with the right. There's a bit of an optical illusion here. The upper arm isn't as tilted as the R forarm, and L arm, make it appear.

But still, the elbow is up for a moment .... before the foot plant ...

. >

Frankly, we've seen a few pitches in live action where Pineda gets excited, and his elbow (at max load) does drift a bit higher than in this photo. Once he gets the butterflies out, relaxes into the grind, that will presumably smooth out.

Comments

I don't know Doc.. His elbow

I don't know Doc.. His elbow is too high for comfort in these pictures and hes been worse in some still I've seen.
Throwing your elbow above shoulder-line is an un-natural motion, especially with stress of tossing 95mph+. I'm far from any kind of expert, but I learned that in basic P&A. It also seems like all these guys get injured and anyone that lasts long doesn't have this in their motion (either than maybe Smoltz who has had shoulder AND elbow surgery with rumors steroid-use).
My question with Pineda is.. why gamble? If you could trade Pineda+ for Jesus Montero next week, wouldn't that be a safer way of using your resources?

The debate is interesting

And I respect your take on it 100% ... believe that we've also provided detailed response...
That the lower the elbow, the better, we take as a given ... we've also opined that the moment at which it is raised, is important ... and that other factors are important, so the "high elbow" factor should be balanced against others (like 97 mph factors), not used as a single issue voting sticker...
................
Philosophically, if you could convert any AAA pitching prospect into Jesus Montero, would you? There's a good argument for it...
Offer me Jesus Montero for Michael Pineda, even steven, and I think I would make that trade, sempai...

I'd agree with you Doc, that

I'd agree with you Doc, that its not as bad if a pitcher has that elbow high before he sets into his motion..
Still, in that third picture Pineda foot is nearly set and his elbow is still very high.
Its really a question of "when" with Pineda IMO.. If I own this guy in ROTO keeper league, I'm selling him when his stock is highest for someone of similar value.

But you can't...

There is no Montero-for-Pineda trade that could be made. Montero is probably the biggest minor league hitting prospect in the nation. The Yankees have no payroll concerns so they can trade that prospect for ANY pitcher. They don't need a cheap, unproven one with a really good arm. Montero is the sort of player that goes in the package for Felix Hernandez, not Mike Pineda.
So the question is how much lesser of a hitting prospect would you settle for to move Pineda now? He's certainly not the top-rated pitching prospect in the nation, and he won't return you his best-case-scenario value.
Would I flip Pineda at some point before he becomes a free agent? Sure, for the right package I absolutely would. But if you bail on him now it's with the knowledge that getting a decent SS prospect or a .760 OPS LF is more important to you than risking Pineda's injury prospects.
It's not to me.
~G

I think you can get a premium

I think you can get a premium guy for Pineda.
Casey Kelly headed a package for Adrian Gonzalez this year.. You could probably land a nice young MLBer, although you prefer a prospect-for-prospect trade (KC's Myers or Hosmer).
It seems like the trade route hasn't yet caught up to the exploding market. You could target any number of guys.

I agree

We can get a premium, expensive major leaguer in the last year or so of his deal for Pineda+whatever. Maybe a troubled guy with friction on his team who's not expensive yet. I'd still swap Pineda + Guti +some for Colby Rasmus, or maybe 2008 Grady Sizemore, even though we'd need to find even more pitching once we did that.
But prospect-for-prospect trades are rare, and usually happen when two teams have minor league BATS that are blocked in the bigs and swap them for unblocked positions. The last one I can think of like that was Toronto and Oakland. I can't think of the last quality minor-league pitcher who was swapped straight up for a quality minor-league hitter.
If we'd raise payroll, I'd be more than happy to trade Pineda for a thumper, but it wouldn't be a cheap thumper. Prince Fielder would be one of the few options I see on the 2012 FA docket, and we've got that position filled already.
Nobody's giving up a good SS. We could use a 3B, but who would we get? Edwin Encarnacion? No thanks...
I just don't see where Pineda fits in trade at this exact moment, Taro. He's a commodity, whether he's in our rotation or getting us another MOTO bat. But until he does it at the major league level you will be getting pennies on the dollar for him or using him in a multi-player trade for a costly hitter.
And after he does it on the major league level it's REALLY hard to cut bait and assume he'll get injured.
Beane did a really good job of running his Big Three out there and maximizing their time with him, then trading them when they were getting expensive.
It takes a pair of serious brass ones to do that, though, and it never netted him so much as a playoff series victory. *shrugs* My guess is Pineda's here for a while, so I'm gonna start praying now that his arm stays healthy and productive.
~G

I'd agree that a guy close to

I'd agree that a guy close to FA wouldn't make sense. It would have to be a prospect for prospect trade or trading for a proven guy pre-arbitration. Something like what Tampa-Min did a couple years back.