I remember looking at Runners on vs bases empty splits in like 2007 for his career and seeing that, although he had a big split in his first couple of seasons, it seemed to be dwindling...but that was including runners at first (not scoring position)...and the Mariners, as you know, didn't have guys in scoring position for Ichiro much after about 2003. So...WHOA! I never realized this was such an extreme split for Ichiro...and with 2000 plate appearances per out type and over 2000 PA with men on vs. several thousand for bases empty to talk about...this is certianly a statistically significant split.
WHOA again. Ichiro #3 is, therefore, absolutely the right call. And likely always has been. In point of fact, a line drive singles hitter is more likely to leverage the speed of guys in front of him (Ackley and Figgins) if they're on base than a slugger (Smoak or Montero)...so...if you're going with faster guys up front (Figgins/Ackley)...they have more value with Ichiro third anyway.
So.../cosign big time on this move for two reasons - Ichiro is better this way...and so are Figgins/Ackley if they are getting on base. And think of the opportunities for Smoak or Montero to thump a multi-run dinger with Ichiro having worked a walk or fought and fouled off a ton of pitches to stay alive right in front of them and kept innings alive. Just...wow.
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IceX, one of our resident NPB hyper-experts, notes
What if this isn't about Figgins batting first, but Ichiro batting third.
Ichiro has bigtime RISP and Runners On numbers and his prowess is well known throughout the league.
Now, few really believe Ichiro is totally done, but by shoving the entire context on Figgins, batting Ichiro third gives you two things... Everyone's looking at Figgins and Ichiro gets to quietly become the extra OBP motor with Ackley infront of Montero and Smoak. The other thing is, Ichiro is probably going to get better pitches to look at with Ackley on base (Figgins on base... hahahaha) than empty leadoff.
We wandered over to B-Ref.com to see what Ice meant by "big time" and, hold on to your lug nuts it's tiiiiiiime fer an overhaul:
ICHIRO CAREER | 2 out, RISP | RISP | Men On | Bases Empty |
PA | 792 | 1,660 | 2,794 | 5,266 |
OBP | .475 | .436 | .400 | .354 |
BB | 149 | 254 | 294 | 202 |
K | 64 | 145 | 234 | 518 |
EYE | 2.33 | 1.75 | 1.26 | 0.39 |
Let this statistic sink deeeep into your ears.
Why, oh why, would Ichiro's EYE be 0.40 with no RBI available, but 1.75 when RBI are available? ... well, more in a minute, but for now chew on this: do you remember all those times that Dave Henderson busted Ichiro's chops for simply wanting to get on base, during a rally, as opposed to grabbing the "Big RBI"?
Edit to add, after good spots by alert readers, Ichiro's EYE is 46/64 -- 0.72 -- with RISP and 2 out. This is still double his bases-empty EYE and confirms the 11-years-long observation by broadcasters that Ichiro is "strangely passive" with RBI available. Check that: he's calculating with RBI available.
His lifelong K% is 10.0 with bases empty and 8.7 with men on, which is another reflection of his more-controlled approach with men on.
We wouldn't say that Ichiro becomes George Brett during rallies -- his AVG and SLG don't go up that much -- but he certainly does eliminate his fishing for sucker pitches and he applies his "toughest Ichiro AB's" to the pitcher's dismay.
=== Same Thing Last Year ===
Maybe you're thinking that in 2011, the Aged Ichiro lost this ability to go surgeon-cool in RBI situations. You'd be thinking wrong. In 2011, the surgeonlike Ichiro-B also showed up in RBI situations:
ICHIRO 2011 | RISP | Bases Empty |
PA | 158 | 473 |
OBP | .401 | .292 |
BB | 24 | 12 |
K | 12 | 48 |
EYE | 2.0 | 0.25 |
It is the EYE ratio that is the key feature of this chess position. Ichiro with the bases empty is going up there thinking "200 HITS," and thinking absolutely nothing else. He's fishing for sucker pitches outside the strike zone, refusing to accept walks, desperately gambling to pad his hit total.
On the other hand, put a man on 2B or 3B and Ichiro suddenly goes into Team Mode. He refuses to swing at a ball, he finds a way to get on base, and the team scores runs.
Related to this is the fact that the other teams' pitchers know how fanatical Ichiro is about 200 hits, and that he'll swing at 3-and-1 sucker pitches in order to keep the AB alive. But with runners on, the pitchers have to come into the strike zone. When both Ichiro and the pitcher know that a strike is coming, Ichiro is going to line the ball somewhere.
Edit again to add: the above split gives an 11:12 EYE with RISP and 12:48 without. That's an 0.92 EYE vs an 0.25 EYE.
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=== Man on 1B ====
What if there is a man on 1B only? Ichiro's stats are the same as with bases empty. I guess two things cancel each other: it's good that the defense is compromised, but on the other hand Ichiro gets some force outs on what would have been infield hits. Those two things exactly balance.
The takeaway is that, with a runner on 1B only, Ichiro's attitude is the same as if the bases are empty: he wants 200 hits, period. WHY this would be so, you tell me.
Edit to add, alert readers did tell me: the IBB's are a big part of Ichiro's game with men on, but nobody's going to IBB Ichiro with a man on 1B only. :- )
...............
Any situation with a runner on 2B or further, including (say) 1B and 3B, Ichiro suddenly is fine with a walk. And an Ichiro who is selective at the plate -- including on 3-and-2 -- is a deadly Ichiro.
The weird thing is that we've been watching Ichiro do this for 11 years, and we have been subconsciously perceiving it, but not until today do we perceive it consciously. There is an Ichiro-A and an Ichiro-B. Given a rally to hit behind, Ichiro becomes interested in the scoreboard and in the win.
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=== Late In the Inning ===
By number of outs in the inning, Ichiro is also rash-vs-intelligent, depending on the offensive environment around him:
ICHIRO CAREER | PA | HR | EYE | OBP |
0 out | 3,839 | 57 | 0.39 | .354 |
1 out | 2,096 | 18 | 0.76 | .367 |
2 out | 2,125 | 20 | 1.04 | .401 |
Part of this is the fact that you can't have RISP leading off the game, when there are 0 out. But still: notice the disproportionate HR totals with 0 out. When Ichiro steps up, "playing by himself," he's thrashing away going for singles, doubles, and homers. But when he's playing as one link in a sequence of baserunners, his brain gets washed in the cool water of the team goals and he is a far, far better hitter.
.
=== IBB's ===
Edit to add, two readers noted that a good part of these glitzy stats arise from the fact that Ichiro often gets intentionally walked when he comes up in the middle of rallies. Absolutely.
AFTER adjusting for IBB's, Ichiro's career-long EYE remains 0.59 with RISP and 0.39 with no men on base. The difference between 0.40, and 0.60, over the course of 11 years, is still large and leaves the core point unchanged. Ichiro bears down and shrinks his strike zone when he comes up during the middle of rallies.
..............
Granted, a lot of Ichiro's effectiveness in the middle of rallies is due to the IBB's -- and those IBB's change the scoreboard. If you've got a hitter who comes up with runners on 2B and 3B, and the other team trembling in its boots puts him on 1B, the intentional walk is just as good as an unintentional walk.
Supposing that David Ortiz bunts to beat the shift next year, goes 20-for-23 doing that, do the twenty hits "count"?
Reflect on this also: Ichiro is one of the most IBB'ed players in the major leagues. Why is it that managers fear him, in the middle of rallies, and don't, when he's leading off an inning? Because of Ichiro-B.
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=== Dr's Prognosis, Dept. ===
Ichiro's excellent performance during rallies held up during 2011. He batted .302 with a .401 OBP, and had a 24:12 EYE. You would almost say that Ichiro's poor 2011 was caused by the lack of offense occurring around him.
It's times like this that make he half-wish that I were a bookie. Hitting #3 behind Dustin Ackley, Ichiro is a mortal lock to bounce back (to some degree or other).
It's a crying shame that Ichiro has spent his career playing behind .188 hitters. I wonder what he'd have hit, if he'd been #2 or #3 with the Red Sox.
BABVA,
Dr D
Comments
All, each one of the three of them, hit better in the #2 hole than in the #1 hole, and all, each one of them, hit better in the #3 spot than in the #2.
Just a quick look at the first three .350 hitters that occurred to me, and their splits aren't as wide as Ichiro's (nobody's would be). But there's little doubt that a Rod Carew type benefits (more than other hitters do) from knowing that a strike is coming.
You have to throw a strike, and Carew or Gwynn or Ichiro know it, you're going to get a frozen rope out of the situation.
Lots of Cinderella seasons occur when you have lots of sub-plots brewing like this.
We remember the year Lenny Wilkens took over the Sonics midseason ... the Sonics were terrible but you went, "Wow, they sure have a shot-blocker at center, Marvin Webster." And they had Dennis Johnson playing great defense, and Gus Williams on the bench, and Jack Sikma was fun to watch .... a little tweak and BAM they're a great team.
It won't necessarily occur, but I honestly can sense a dozen little sub-plots brewing as though a script were about to be released.
You might look back and say, "Well, sure Ichiro was going to hit, if he were coming to bat in the middle of rallies," and you might look back and say, "Sure, let Figgy lead off and the little prima donna was going to give you his best game," and so forth.
We could talk about the smoothness of the OBP across the base-out situations...
But what is really irrefutable are the EYE ratios. You don't need advanced math to see that those are no accident.
Career IsoP with men on: .085
Career IsoP with RISP: .078
I agree, with men on Ichiro's eye increases DRAMATICALLY, and therefore pushes his OBP up. I can get behind a move from the leadoff spot just based on that alone. But don't expect him to drive in runs. He's gonna be bunting behind Ackley.
Again, not a terribly big deal. We're gonna be playing our #1 and #2 hitters as our #2 and #3. Totally doable. We have 4 and 5 and maybe even 6 and 7 hitters who can take advantage.
Now, I heard that Ichiro was adjusting this offseason and widening his batting stance to drive the ball more instead of keeping that narrow foot positioning. I'm curious to see that, and its effects. Anything that helps us get more production our of our 18 million a year investment is fine by me.
I'll just get to be terrified all year that a tick up in Ichiro's production will get him that 3 or 4 year extension here and we can pay for his age 41 and even 42 seasons.
He's be cracking 3000 hits at that time and breaking Pete Rose's hits mark if one includes his Japanese numbers, so I can absolutely see us doing that.
One should not begrudge one's HOFers, I guess. So go Ichiro - crank your production back up and help us surprise people this year in good ways. I hope the batting order shuffle and your offseason adjustments to slowing reflexes pay big dividends.
And that management doesn't tell me next offseason that you ate all our cookies.
~G
That is the cap on the possible benefits to hitting Ichiro third: he's not going to get you 110 RBI there, no matter who's in front of him.
Hit Ichiro alllll yearrrrr long at #3, and even if he has a big year, and even if Ackley and Figgins do well, you're still looking at 80 RBI, although perhaps 120 runs scored.
...........
But having him sting base hits around the park, and OBP .380+, and you can afford to hand the inning over to Montero, Carp, and Smoak :- )
This particular club will need its RBI's from the kids. But if you can improve Ichiro's *output* as such, that'll fit in nicely, right?
Let's say that Ichiro adds the 6th to his MVP-candidate years, because he's got a guy having a great year in front of him ... .320/.390/.425 and one of the first 38-year-olds to post 4.0 WAR ...
Come July, I assume the Mariners will have the resolve to talk market value with him, and can't imagine that remains anywhere near $18M...
You know the drill. "Well, if 3 x 12 doesn't do it for you, you're welcome to go pull a Bobby Abreu this winter" ...
Whether the M's want to do a 3 x 12 with Ichiro is another Q, but the fact that we're already worrying about an UP year is ok with me...
A return to form is required from several members of this team if we're to compete, and since I don't think we're getting one from Chone, having Ichiro become some version of his former self would be great.
If Guti can come along, even better.
Whatever it takes. The kids can't do EVERYTHING - the guys we're paying need to pull their weight too. To whom much is given, much is required. ;)
~G
Your numbers don't take into account INTENTIONAL BB.
For instance, in 2011, of his 24 BB with RISP, 13 were IBB. Trye EYE = not 2.0, half that. (might have been even less since those extra 13 AB's would likely have been swinging AB's given the opportunity).
Career RISP: BB = 237 IBB=158. He's not more patient. He's avoided.
(#s from Fangraphs)
Does this filter IBBs?
But if we're capable of subtracting IBB's, why are we not capable of seeing what the numbers say after normalization?
With IBB's removed in 2011, he's at 0.93 EYE with RISP and 0.40 without, and you conclude that "he's not more patient"?
Ichiro is more controlled with men on, no question, as reflected by his lifetime K% with men on and without. But will cheerfully concede that the IBB are a big part of his production during rallies.
But it doesn't. I was thinking the same thing, thinking I read this before and disproved it (in my own head).
With Runners in scoring position he has 168 IBB, removing the IBB changes his line from
.333/.436/.411
to
.333/.366/.411
With Runners in scoring position and 2 outs, he has 103 IBB, remove the IBB and: .344/.475/.434 becomes .344/.396/.434
And yes, those 103 IBB with 2 outs take a big bite out of the 2 outs/any situation line too: .331/.401/.411 becomes .331/.370/.411
The best ISOp you get is .052 (RISP/2 Outs) which is a lot better than the .029 he has without runners on, but with RISP, its just .033 which isn't better. The fact is, Ichiro has played on a lot of bad offensive clubs and it hasn't been that dangerous to just put him on base. With the comments about not changing his approach, I don't anticipate seeing Ichiro with newfound patience.
I wonder why you and Rob did not go ahead and compare the EYE ratios after normalizing for IBB's?
Did you not notice that his career-long EYE is 0.59 with RISP and 0.39 with no men on base? The difference between 0.40, and 0.60, over the course of 11 years, is still vast and leaves the core point unchanged.
..............
Granted, a lot of Ichiro's effectiveness in the middle of rallies is due to the IBB's -- and those IBB's change the scoreboard.
Apparently I got logged out mid-post.
That being said, his eye ratio gets better, he strikes out a hair less and his unintentional walk rate goes from about 3.8% to 4.8%, but it's not like it even gets to league average...
The average AL hitter last year's EYE ratio with none on: .40
With RISP: .47
So everyone gets an improvement, and Ichiro gets a better one, but a .6 EYE ratio isn't exactly stellar. Alexei Ramirez pulled that last year over all his at bats.
... which I overlooked. There's a section in the article on it now. Appreciate the feedback. Three things about IBB's:
............
1. The splits are not AS incredibly drastic after normalizing. They're still remarkable. There is an Ichiro-A, with an EYE of 0.39, and an Ichiro-B, with an EYE of 0.59.
Cheerfully conceded, Ichiro's AVG and SLG are comparable in both situations, so the point is well taken. I definitely overstated Ichiro's hitting improvement during rallies.
Ichiro's career-long K% is 10.0 with bases empty, 8.7 with runners on. This stat is another reflection of his more controlled approach during rallies.
.............
2. A hitter who is IBB'ed with two runners on 2B and 3B, that guy has achieved a walk that counts in his statline.
If you've got a guy who can draw 15 intentional walks a year based on the fear factor, those 15 walks count in his effectiveness.
..............
3. Managers fear Ichiro-B and walk him constantly. Ichiro-A sees a lot of sucker pitches. This "scouting report" by opposing managers speaks to the dichotomy.
Now redundant.
1. K/BB, I'm sure, worsens for pitchers working from the stretch, a little bit. Ichiro's EYE goes up, a lot.
It's like saying, Joe Shlabotnik hit .202 on the road and .425 at home last year. "But doesn't everybody hit better at home?"
If 0.40 is the norm with bases empty and 0.47 the norm with men on, then 0.39 vs 0.59 is clearly a wide split.
That's 11 years' data; last year Ichiro was 0.25 vs 0.93, even if you clear out the IBB's.
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2. It's been common knowledge, since 2001, that Ichiro is "passive" with RBI available. If you've listened to an M's broadcast, you've heard them complain about this.
The EYE ratios confirm the change in Ichiro's approach, but watching a ballgame helps, too.
The mind's eye remembers all those times that Ichiro whaled away with nobody on, and worked the pitcher when up during a rally.
..........
3. We're always assuming here that all of these 168 IBB's occurred after 0-0 counts, rather than after 2-0 or 3-0 counts.
...........
4. There is no doubt that IBB's are a huge part of Ichiro's awesome production when he comes up during the middle of a rally. Let's give him some credit for that fact.
After all, if David Ortiz would lay down bunts against the shift and pick up 20 hits in 23 AB's that way, we'd hardly tell him that the hits don't count.
I don't disagree with you there Doc. The IBBs are credited in WAR. IBBs are given less value than BBs (because of the fact that they are strategically applied), but still have some value.
Ichiro's decline saddens me.. I wish I could have seen Ichiro with his '04 swing for one last season in his prime. I wonder why he abandoned it.. Like the idea and intent behind the new swing, but the stillness of Ichiro's head during his swing is part of what made him so great.
And it was a work of art. It really was.
The IBBs indicate the fear of giving Ichiro something to hit. With RISP, there's a general pereception that Ichiro can cause a heck of a lot of chaos... The fear of the hit, the bunt, the error causing grounder, etc.
The key to his success this year will be what happens when hitters begin to challenge him as well. I doubt it'll be Figgy-esque.
Key word in the above was - AVOIDED.
That does not equate to IBBs exclusively. The IBBs are confirmation that the opposition treats Ichiro differently with RISP. But that is not the full extent of the situation. It's not enough to factor out *only* the IBBs. One also needs to consider all of the "unintention" intentional walks as well.
For a decade there was no hitter in baseball more likely to get a base hit than Ichiro, (on Seattle or not). With the weakness of hitters behind Ichiro, the IBBs are obvious ... but some managers give order "pitch around" rather than "walk him".
Not saying there isn't "any" effect. But, by and large I believe the majority of the increased eye is caused by the change in opposition approach - not a change in Ichiro's approach. He doesn't whiff, because they aren't throwing strikes. He walks because they aren't throwing strikes.
Mind you, Ichiro is a pro. He undoubtedly factors in game situation into his thinking about what the pitcher will be doing. With RISP, Ichiro knew (way before we did), that he's severely more likely to see balls than strikes. He still doesn't like taking a walk ... but his .078 ISO compared to his .101 with bases empty fairly screams that he is *NOT* loading up to get RBI. He's actually hitting the ball "weaker", (which is truly disturbing since so much of his basic game is infield hits to begin with).
I love the idea that situationally, Ichiro might be capable of "stalking" a pitch to get a runner home. But, the aggregate data suggests the change in approach is almost certainly 90% (or more) on the side of the opposition. I'd love to discuss the idiocy of the pitch-to-him-like-he's-Bonds decision making of the opposition, but my take on the entire statistical picture is that Ichiro is basically the same hitter in all situations. It is the opposition that changes their behavior. Not Ichiro.
That several of those IBBs (perhaps even more than half) occured after the pitcher fell behind, and I would bet that Ichiro does go from having 25% of his hits being of the infield variety to perhaps 5% so that the .333 batting average becomes a little less leg dependent. But I would not say his increase in walks is like a guy batting .202 on the road and .425 at home, more like .250 on the road and .275 at home because a .6 EYE ratio is still only slightly above average and a 4.8% walk rate is very below average.
I think he probably gets walked in RISP situations not because of improved patience, but because of his famous and uncanny ability to hit those pesky parachute line drives that fall about 30-40 feet behind the shortstop or second baseman that fall too fast to get to, and take to long to get to to keep the guy on second from scoring.
The simple fact that Ichiro's walk rate with RISP over the course of his career is 15.19%, which by-and-large is below what we would want to see in ANY player (20% is the target that we would like to see in ANY situation), and it drops all the way down to 4.07% when we toss out the IBB's! With such a low percentage of walks any talk of Ichiro's batting eye is superfluous.
And, yes, I DID spell that right on my first attempt!
Lonnie
except that is exactly what he did. You never know how many RBI's a third place hitter can get when you have runners in scoring position often enough.
Tommy Herr's 1985 stats.
STL NL 159 696 596 97 180 38 3 8 110 31 3 80 55 .302 .379 .416 .795 123 248 6 2 5 13 5 *4 AS,MVP-5
"Why is it that managers fear him, in the middle of rallies, and don't, when he's leading off an inning? Because of Ichiro-B."
Sandy is right. For years now, opposing managers had nothing to fear if they walked Ichiro in the middle of rallies. No one would drive in the runners. This season, let them worry about facing Montero, Smoak, and Carp with runners on base. Is it Opening Day yet?