I really think that the gain in offense for moving off catcher is overblown. Catchers develop later than 1B/DH because of the difficulty of learning position. They also decline earlier thanks to the wear and tear.
Whether or not C actually caps offensive ceiling is impossible to tell without re-doing a lot of these careers. MOST prospects fail or underachieve which is why I think we get so much of the second-guessing.
Given the massive amount of value in being able to play even a poor C over a strict DH, I'm hoping the Ms continue to develop Montero as a catcher. Let his development decide whether or not he can stick at catcher. He'll get DH time regardless with his hit ability and to keep him fresh.
..............
=== Looks Better the Closer You Are ===
From the Larry Stone article:
Butch Wynegar, a former major-league catcher who has worked extensively with Montero as a Yankees instructor, dismisses the comparison to Piazza.
"Monty is not Mike Piazza," he told the New York Post last spring. "He is not going to be a hitter-only as a catcher. He is going to be an everyday catcher in the big leagues who can handle the catching. I truly believe that."
Law's focus on the running game is, am sorry to say, not on point. The difference between the best and worst catchers in the game, on SB's, is +8 to -8 runs per season. SB's will not play heavily into this issue.
Now, it could be that Montero is poor at EVERYTHING - pitch framing, pitch blocking, throwing - adding up to a -2.0 WAR scenario. But the biggest question is still CERA.
Butch Wynegar, unlike bloggers like me and Law, has (1) been an ML catcher and (2) been on the field with Jesus Montero. If there is one common thread in this debate, it's that the more distant people are from Montero, the less they like his catching. The closer they are to him, and the more authoritative they are, the better they like his catching.
Did you notice this? The less people have been around Montero personally, the more dogmatic they are about his not catching? And the people who have worked with him, those people say, "Hey, there is no problem here."
.
=== CERA ===
Now, if Jack Zduriencik, Brian Cashman and Butch Wynegar tell us that Jesus Montero can catch, I'm not going to take a blogger's word that Montero can't. That's their call.
THESE are your only two questions on Jesus Montero. You get to spring training, you want to ask Eric Wedge. "Do the pitchers like throwing to him?"
That's all. That's what will drive the decision. One of three things will occur:
- Montero will be bad in every single area of the game, this will add to -25 runs or something, and he'll move off C.
- Montero will be Gimenez-like in his pitcher management, and he'll move off C.
- Montero will be neither, and he'll add to maybe -5 or -10 runs defensively, and he'll SLG .500 from C.
A catcher or shortstop of CF who gives away 5-10 runs with his glove, but who is one of the ten or twenty best hitters in baseball? That's probably the most common type of player in baseball's Hall of Fame.
.
=== Dr's Prognosis ===
If Montero were going to be -10 runs in each aspect of the game, I think that Zduriencik and Cashman and Wynegar would not be telling us that he can catch. You can gingerly rule that out.
Pitchers are likely to be quite fond of Montero. He's a humble, mature kid, coachable, self-effacing. You're not talking about Ben Davis here. Montero is a lot closer to Tim Tebow, personality-wise, than he is to Michael Irvin. Or at least he's closer to Edgar than to Ben Davis. ;- )
Maybe pitch sequences will be his Achilles' heel. Could well be. That was precisely Gimenez' problem: predictable fastballs, and blizzards of them. Will Montero do that? I don't know, and I don't think Keith Law knows, either.
And maybe you want to just let him hit, anyway. That was the way with Carlos Delgado. In any case, you know the drill. The CERA's the thing. Whether the M's got Miguel Cabrera or Mike Piazza, they're looking at more than 513 runs this year.
.
BABVA,
Dr D
Comments
When a Steve Carlton (who could throw to me and get out MLB hitters) say's "I'm throwing to McCarver, got it Skip?" you know that pitcher comfort and confidence with his receiver is WAY important.
If Felix and Hultzen and Vargas LIKE throwing to the kid, he'll catch quite a bit. End of discussion, I think.
There is another question that comes to play here, however. That is, how much influence (negative) does catching have on the offensive performance of a hitter such as Montero?
It may be real hard to quantify in any single season, perhaps impossible. J. Bench in '70 or '72 probably wouldn't have hit any better at 1st base. Probably.
But, what might it cost a Bench or a Montero, in terms of offensive performance, to catch for a career? Bench was effectively done as a hitting force beyone the age of 31. And catching "likely" cost him more than 600 AB's (a full season's worth) during the seasons he was 28-31. He was an interesting case. One of the handful of best offensive player around until he was 27. How many more years of that level of performance could he have had as a 1B?
Beginning in '75, when Bench was 27, the Reds played Tony Perez fulltime at 1B for two seasons, then Dan Driessen for four. They OPS'ed between 102 and 124 in those seasons. For four of those years they were above 118. so the Reds got decent (or better) offensive performance from their 1B guys, but may have shortened Bench's career. Now Bench may be one of the handful of best defensive catchers in the history of the game, so he's probably near the top at saving runs.....but how many runs created did catching for a career cost him?
Who knows, I suppose. It is worth considering, however.
Carlton Fisk, on the other hand, saw no significant offensive decline and he caught fulltime until he was 42 and 43. He wasn't one of the est offesnive performs in the game, however.
IF Montero is a truly special offensive player, I don't catch him.
If he's just pretty good with the bat, give him the mask, I suppose. But even then, I reevaluate each and every year.
moe
Get the all time leaders in WAR or WS or PCA (my own) and rank them by position. What multiplier do you need to get the best ten catchers to have a similar value distribution as the best ten first basemen?
Answer? Roughly 0.4 from PCA - 0.35 if you just want the top four catchers of all time to make the top 40 position players of all time.
I don't think catcher attracts inherently less talented people to it. Which implies that the position adjjustment (career) is roughly to reduce potential value by 35-40%.
Before he hits the market and wants literally $30M per season. Catching now will impact his age-31 season, without a doubt, but did Billy Beane care about Barry Zito's workload?
Don't mean to sound heartless, but these days it's almost like college athletes - you have them for a cycle of years and then you re-load -
Now, if the M's really can sign him to a Longoria deal with three club options out to year 9, then yeah...
:daps:
Justin brings up the precedent of Matt Weiters in Baltimore, a #5 overall pick who hit .350/.450/.600 in A+ and AA straight out of college, and a 1:1 EYE ratio into the bargain.
Weiters has hit only .265/.328/.415 in three years catching in the AL, but of course that may be simply that Weiters was never that talented.
I know one thing - he couldn't have been any more talented with the bat than Montero. Nobody is. :- )
............
If the M's do wind up with a .550 SLG catcher, then they are in for some joy-joy happy happy years.
Am not grokking what you're saying. "Similar value distribution" meaning what?
Sounds interesting, but for some reason am not visualizing the thought experiment. Maybe am too tired :- )
Wieters is coming off a 4.3 WAR season in 2011 with a jump in power and relatively low BABIP. 2012 could be his breakout year. Its likely Wieters' hitting ceiling is a bit lower than originally expected, but hes had 2.5 years of MLB time and is still an impact player.
If Bal had transitioned Wieters to DH in his rookie season and gotten his 2011 hitting line last year (Cs develop later than 1B/DH), they would have been rewarded with a mediocre 1-1.5 Win DH.
I don't think Wieters is an example of why you should move tweener Cs off to 1B/DH early in their careers. Hes the exact opposite. Thanks to sticking at C hes turned into an impact player. If he were a DH-only, its likely that he'd have very little value right now.
That was a confusing way of saying:
"Line up the ten or twenty or fifty best players at east position side by side (the catchers next to the first basemen etc)...and apply a nultiplier to the catchers until they have the same number of wins as the other positions."
How much do you have to add to Johnny Bench and Gary Carter to make them match Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx. :) Only on a larger scale than two players.
"2H power surge (15 HR in 250 AB) was well-supported by his skills (PX 140, CT% 84, EYE 0.73) and xPX (130) says there is more to come.
"2H xAVG (.285) offers more reason for optimism.
"BPX (185) shows what an overall leap forward this was. For those taken in by the premature hype but then got impatient, you missed the boat.
"UP: 30 HR"
Looking through Baseball-ref I pulled some minor league numbers regarding Montero's defense in comparison to current MLB C. The players in comparison are guys similar in Height/Weight. They are all from their last year playing more than a few games in the minors. Games played ranging 45-89. Take them for what they are.
CATCHER G FLD% RF/G PB CS%
Mauer 60 .992 6.33 2 47
Saltalamacchia 55 .988 7.78 4 15
Molina,J 76 .994 8.47 5 55
Mcann 45 .997 7.36 2 29
Barajas 89 .982 6.71 5 36
Montero 88 .997 7.42 7 20
Looking through Baseball-ref I pulled some minor league numbers regarding Montero's defense in comparison to current MLB C. The players in comparison are guys similar in Height/Weight. They are all from their last year playing more than a few games in the minors. Games played ranging 45-89. Take them for what they are.
CATCHER G FLD% RF/G PB CS%
Mauer 60 .992 6.33 2 47
Saltalamacchia 55 .988 7.78 4 15
Molina,J 76 .994 8.47 5 55
Mcann 45 .997 7.36 2 29
Barajas 89 .982 6.71 5 36
Montero 88 .997 7.42 7 20
# of seasons of WAR (per B-Ref) greater than 4 (by position 50% or more):
CF - 530
RF - 480
1B - 450
LF - 450
3B - 420
SS - 380
2B - 350
C - 200
There have been plenty of CFs with the power to add to the defensive value of the position. There have been 3B / SS / 2B, though not quite as many.
But catcher? Getting a catcher with good power is HARD. Teams talk about moving good hitters away from C to stop it from destroying them, but it's a position that can take a good bat and allow it to make a spectacular contribution. The number of great bats at the position? Few. And pretty much all of them with any career length were HOFers.
I don't expect Montero to catch full-time for 15 years or something, but for every year that he can, you let him. Job-sharing C with Jaso and DH with Carp (who is also job-sharing LF with Wells who in turn is job-sharing CF with Guti)...
It seems like a lot of work. Can't just fill out a lineup card with the same guys in the same positions all the time.
I'm okay with that. The rewards are worth it. Getting a bat like Montero's could be and who is able to don the tools of ignorance is a rare thing.
We paid a LOT for the privilege of seeing it happen.
So let's see it happen.
~G
The whole team as a series of job shares.
1B: Smoak, Carp, potentially Montero
2B: Ackley, Seager
SS: Ryan, Kawasaki or Rodriguez, Seager
3B: Seager, Figgins, Liddi
C: Olivo, Jaso, Montero
LF: Wells, Carp
CF: Wells, Gutierrez
RF: Ichiro, Wells
DH: Monter, Smoak, Carp
Other than Ackley and Ichiro, it's hard to imagine any position having 1 player man it more than 130 or so games. Annoying I'm sure for Wedge, but possibly great for health and productivity management? Doc talks a lot about using 4 to make 3 and 7 to make 5, we seem to be positioned to use 14 to make 9.
The top 50 first basemen, as a group, had 140% the career WAR that the top 50 catchers did?
Then trusting managers' intuition as much as I usually do, my first thought would be ... so (invisible) defense is about 1/3 a catcher's value?
Like with shortstops. If you said that SS's had only 2/3 the career WAR that 1B's had, I'd suspect that we weren't adjusting the positions correctly, or not measuring defense correctly, or something.
One of the most interesting things pointed out yet. Sifting through the data it seems playing time is the main culprit (elite Cs get MUCH less PT than elite 1B in the history of baseball).
Most value is collected though hitting so hitting-scarce positions generally have less stars, but its few elite catchers hit the list even in comparison to SSs and 2Bs.
Since 1980 there have been 169 3+ WAR Cs seasons and 299 3+ WAR 1B seasons.
After sifting through the data though, it does seem as though C really eats into a player's longevity. They get less PT (the #1 reason) and have shorter careers.
Once you adjust the data to only include seasons with games played less than 140:
Since 1980 there are 34 4+ WAR C seasons and 26 4+ WAR 1B seasons.
So there are actually MORE quality Cs when PT is limited per season in the current era. Basically, C limits elite players because you don't get ENOUGH of them.
The option of DH should fix that for Montero. The ideal jobshare with Montero may be something like 65 C/ 35 DH. That way you keep his bat in the everyday lineup, keep him fresh, and gain the massive position value at C.
Felix has his game figured out, as does Hultzen and Paxton, I would imagine, and would therefore have fewer issues with a rookie C.
Would love to read thoughts about who Jaso catches vs Montero. Maybe Montero gets the Spanish-speaking Felix and Noesi and Jaso the English-speaking lefties and Iwakuma?
Your Wedge, how do you begin to break the C duties up? 60/50/50 (O/J/M)? Trade Olivo and go 100/60 between Jaso and Montero with Moore as understudy in Tacoma?
Can Olivo be the catching-instructor/defensive replacement?
G:
Job-sharing C with Jaso and DH with Carp (who is also job-sharing LF with Wells who in turn is job-sharing CF with Guti)...
Mal:
The whole team as a series of job shares.
With LH (ought to be solid OBP) Jaso at C in the lineup, then Monty to DH and Carp to LF.
Removing RH (questionable OBP) Wells -- so you've got smooth flow of LH guys who get on base, plus Monty. (Ichiro-Seager-Ackley-Carp-RH Monty-SH Smoak-Jaso.) That ought to make for some long innings for RHP.
But if you want RH bombs-away guys, you can throw Olivo, Wells, Liddi and Monty out there all at once.
***
And I just think y'all are too fixated on Wells. His successor is rounding the final curve and heading for the homestretch. He is our #1 hitting prospect left in the minors. His minor-league track record is ten times better than Wells and pretty much as good as Ackley's.
C-A-T-R-I-C-A-L-A
I don't think he'll come up until later in the summer, but I don't doubt he will. If he comes up in LF, then he bumps Wells out of the rotation entirely. If they give him a go at 3b, then he's squeezing out Seager and Liddi. I think he'll squeeze out Wells.
Catricala only had a half season at AA in 2011. He may start 2012 there, especially if they want to try him out at 3B. I doubt he's on track for anything more than a late season call up.
This is the conclusion I reached a few years back when making HOF lists. Catchers need to DH if they can hit enough to stick...but that doesn't prevent them from catching. A 65/35 position share so Montero only catches 4 games a week and DH's 2...BRILLIANT. :)
Seager had never played in AA at the start of 2011, and he was in the majors in June.
Catricala was in the same draft as Ackley and Seager, and he's met every challenge so far, just as those two have.
I think he'll play in the majors before September, but I could be wrong.
I've said before I'm not the biggest fan of Wells in LF. If Wells can play a decent part of the season in CF though (with Guti as a late-innings glove replacement if necessary) then his value skyrockets.
Vinnie is not playing CF. ;)
And my hope is that Catricala spent the winter working out with whoever turned Liddi from a bad-fielding 3B into an acceptable one. If not, Catricala is a LF/1B/DH which...isn't optimal.
Still, I would take 50 2B and 20 HRs from my LF every year and call myself blessed. And if Ichiro is gone next year (we'll see...) then we'l have another OF spot that needs filling anyway, and Wells has the arm for it if we don't get better options. Vinnie doesn't.
If Vinnie can hit, we can find a place for him. But he's only aiming at Wells' spot if Wells can't play a significant amount of innings in CF and Ichiro stays blocking off RF.
So much fun to be had this season.
~G
I love the idea of roster flexibility, especially for such a young club. That said, we do seem to have some inflexbility created by Montero's addition.
If the plan is for Montero to get 600 PAs split between time spent at DH and catcher, then the Ms are going to either need to carry 3 catchers on the roster, or rely on one of the position players to serve as an emergency catcher.
It would be nice not to waste a roster spot on a third catcher. I don't believe that we have anyone on the roster with catching experience other than the three full time catchers.
It isn't clear to me whether using Montero as a part-time DH will mean that the Ms need something more than an "emergency" guy. The likelihood that a third catcher will be needed seems fairly high, depending upon how often Montero starts at DH.
I just don't get any "buzz" from the organization that they anticipate playing him much there. Same way about Seager at SS. Seems more like online chatter than actual likelihood. Could change, of course.
I just disagree with people penciling in Wells as the primary player at a corner OF spot, because I don't think he's up to it (with the bat), and I think that's why Seth Smith was a trade target (pre-Montero).
I also disagree with penciling in Liddi or Franklin without Vinnie, because I think Vinnie is going to produce in the majors sooner than either.
That's all.
Paging Dr. Hansen, paging Dr. Roger Hansen .......
Montero would be in AA from 2012-14 shaving his pop time from 1.94 to 1.89 :- )
Sounds pretty tough in view of the fact that you've got Carp in LF, Wells as #4, and now how do you even think about a platoon with Guti in CF? Unless Wells is your "everyday" fourth OF at all positions?