Hultzen is an above-average health risk. College pitchers have the worst turnout ratio of any other pick partly because they tend to flame out in the majors and mostly because they get injured and lose stuff.
Hultzen's stuff declined about a month and a half ago and his K/9 dropped signficantly since then. Given that hes moving to a 5-man rotation, how do we know that he has the stamina to maintain that early-season stuff?
Bauer was the only pitcher I would have considered at #2 as he had a rare blend of advanced pitching mind, stuff, mechanics, and polish. Hultzen is a nice prospect, but man this reminds of the year we took Morrow...
Q. So why wasn't everybody all over him?
A. Apparently because the light bulbs are not on, regarding Z-Axis Lefties.
All people figured was, "He's a 90 mph lefty with a polished game," like he's a decent #3 SP, which was what McNamara put into the postdraft quotes. A lot of people (not including the M's) must not have perceived the high-strikeout guarantee that you can get with 90 mph.
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Q. Is Cole Hamels good enough to take with the #1 pick?
A. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
High picks are not about comparing ceilings. They are about comparing floors.
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Look, the Mariners don't just draft this year. They drafted last year, and they'll draft next year. What happens if you get a Dustin Ackley and a Cole Hamels and a Ricky Weeks and a Prince Fielder and a Steve Braun every year? What difference does it make HOW great they are? It doesn't.
The Mariners drafted for ceilings all through the 1980's and 1990's and came up with squat.
In roto or in real baseball, just get a real good player with every high pick (and FA contract) and you win.
It isn't about whether Danny Hultzen is a shade the better, or a shade the worse, than some other high pick. It's about getting an impact #1, five years in a row.
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Q. How's his motion?
A. Just quickly:
- Very simple, compact, and repeatable
- Love the "flamingo crouch" over the ball at the top - head forward, Big Unit did this
- Not especially graceful (often implies command issues, but not here)
- Don't like front knee or left elbow much
- Requires little apparent effort - slinging darts at a dartboard (ergo, command)
- Excellent starter's rhythm
- Long arms, natural (biological) leverage
- Superb decel, a mirror image of Randy Johnson's
- Sidearm, seems to hide ball well, a la Sid Fernandez, George Sherrill
His motion is neither a plus nor a minus for me. The important thing is that it's minimum effort, it's a starter's rhythm, and the command Q's I would have, are already answered.
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Q. Injury risk?
A. Taro might not care for his elbow position, though it doesn't bother me too much.
He's a LHP with a sidearm motion, a Billy Beane pitcher with great command, and he's ready for the majors now. Overall he's way ahead of the curve.
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Will cheerfully admit that Dallas Braden, who had the high elbow, just came down with the shoulder injury that people associate with the elbow. Of course, James would immediately point out that Braden was a low-velocity, low-K pitcher.
Cole Hamels' elbow looks about as high as Danny Hultzen's is.
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Comments
If Hultzen were to drop down to "very poor FB," then sure, but if Hultzen got a little gassed at the end of the year, that's not unusual.
If Jack, Mack, baseball, etc. took the velo dropoff seriously, he'd have been late 1st round at best.
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If you don't like college pitchers with top-10 picks, that's a feasible personal orientation ... but:
1. Recent arms (top 1-3 or so college SP's taken) include David Price, Tim Lincecum, Max Scherzer, Brandon Morrow, Ricky Romero, Justin Verlander, Jeff Neimann, Brian Matusz, Stephen Strasburg (back next year) ...
2. It's the probability of this Z-Axis template that turned me around on Hultzen. If we were talking (say) Sonny Gray, no.
I'd say your 2000-08 chances with an ELITE college arm were 50-50 to get a TOR, but this template changes even that.
He is 92-94 and touches 96! I remember trying to explain to people why Hultzen made sense for Pittsburgh when they were reported to be taking him, but didn't get much traction with the peanut gallery. A 92-94 lefty with a ++change and +comand, in Safeco no less? Yes, please.
Another reason this ticks me off is because with Bauer you could have handed him a 10-year contract and not worry about him breaking down, like Felix. With Hultzen we've added another key piece to our rotation that has timing bomb in his shoulder. At any point, Pineda or Hultzen could implode and destory your game plan.
The fact that Bauer has a better heater, better and more diverse offspeed, his stuff is still improving, better mechnics, better results in less of pitchers park, and obsesses about analyzing pitching... I really dislike this pick. I think Bauer's ceiling and floor are both higher than Hultzen's.
Early this year he was hitting mid-90s and was K'ing in the high 14s.
Since the past month-and-a-half, hes been low 90s with some high 80s mixed in and K/9 completely dove downward.
His velocity HAS to recover to justify picking him this high. I can't see how Hultzen is better than Bauer ANYwhere without that added velocity back.
Which is his real velocity? His velocity over the past couple months is the same as its been pre-2011. That is a very long dead arm period for a pitcher with 6 days rest and not a ton of innings.
Not a huge fan of the Hultzen pick, but it's not the end of the world either. "Better" players were available, but the M's still got a reasonable pick. Getting say, the consensus 5th best player with the #2 pick is hardly a tragedy, especially when it's a LH college SP. By all indications, we could have very well ended up with Francisco Lindor. Hultzen is going to be very expensive, this pick was not made for the wrong reasons.
I will say it's been entertaining to see how quickly opinions on Hultzen have spun around on other M's sites in just one day. Anything can happen in the MLB draft. *Never* rip on a potential pick under the assumption that they're going to a different team.
Although, as mentioned, I take the reports of 94 to be similar to the young Bedard touching it once in a while.
I don't even want to think about Hultzen showing up at mid-90's. I'm too young for Depends underwear.
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The series does depend on the idea that Hultzen has that 70 change and 70 command, of course... it's an important quid pro quo, but one that is reinforced by the college K totals...
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Taro, BTW champ... none of the scouts had Hultzen at CONSISTENTLY mid-90's in the first half... why do you figure his K's were so consistent during his lower-velo games?
Had him upper 80's last year, when he was also great ...
And 90'ish most of this year, *occasionally* showing flashes of better velo.
Have given the reasons that I believe Hamels / Bedard / etc. are great at 90 mph. We've seen the 90 mph Z-Axis results with Erikkk, right?
If the M's decide he's a health risk, what are you gonna do? :grrrrrr:
It's not like any of us have our arms around the subject of pitcher injury. But yeah. Bauer would have been my fave player.
Had a feeling, even when typing it, that my "everything Bauer is and much, much less" was too superficial :- )
Needless to say I've only seen a little video on him, but based on scouting reports he was sitting 90-95 early season and 88-93 late season. He throws a mix of four-seamers and sinkers.
Drives me crazy that scouting reports have Hultzen as low injury risk and Bauer as high risk. The entire premise is false.
Late-season Hultzen throws about as hard as Bedard does now. Hamels throws a bit harder, but only by 1+mph.
And for very similar reasons to Lincecum - the way Bauer feels so good playing long toss after a CG.
This week Bauer offered to start on Monday after the weekend...
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The fact that Hultzen is LH is a major plus for his health though, as is the fact that he's ML-ready.
A personal point of interest I just learned with Hultzen was that he grew up in Bethesda, Maryland - about 45 minutes south of me. If any of you make it out to Baltimore or DC, Bethesda is definitely an interesting place to visit. Imagine a city with all of the poor people removed, surrounded by (a) hicville country on one side and ghetto on the other, (b) DC to the south, and (c) the University of MD about 30 min away.
Some facts I pulled off of the Wikipedia page...
1st on Forbes' most educated American small towns
1st on CNNMoney's top earning American towns
1st on Total Beauty's Hottest Guy cities (I guess they must have mistaken me as a resident)
Best educated city in America on the 2000 Census
85.86% White, 7.92% Asian, 2.67% Black
$117,723 median income in 2007
12th most expensive housing in 2010 (avg house at $806,817)
8 Pulitzer Prize winners lived there as of 2009
I definetly prefer Hultzen to Cole, but really wanted Bauer if we were going for SP.. I really think thats a major miss. Bauer had franchise player type potential.
Hultzen is a very safe bet to be a #2-#3 SP that fits really well in Safeco. I think hes a bit of an injury risk, but he should be good and probably soon.
On the other hand, what if Hultzen early-season velocity was a sign of things to come?
Hultzen was sitting a legit 90-95 and was striking about 15 K/9 in the first couple months.
It makes you wonder, what if that velocity comes back? He would be scary.
I'm not sure if I agree that Hultzen is a safe pick (the change in velocity and mechanics), but there is upside there and he is probably already MLB ready (if not very close).
I've looked over Hultzen's video again, and I have to categorize him back as high risk from an injury perspective. He displays the high elbow and poor timing at times. He also has an inconsistent followthrough and supinates his forearm. I also don't like the fact that he doesn't utilize his body in the delivery (poor hip/shoulder separation). He doesn't have awful abduction or timing, but hes has red flags everywhere.
I've been trying to buy into the Hultzen decision, but looking over it again I think Hultzen's velocity NEEDS to come back to justify him at #2. The results were simply completely different. He was the most dominant pitcher in college (Ks) when he was stting in the mid-90s (and its understandable with that decption), but merely good when back at high 80s low 90s velocity.
After giving it time to sink in, I still really dislike the decision to take Hultzen over Bauer, but it could work out IF that velocity comes back.
I think the time has passed where we have to forget about Bauer, he is a Diamondback now. I like Bauer, I think he will be an innings eater with solid all-around abilities, but Hultzen can be really special with him being left handed, him improving every year in college, and I still don't understand your obsession with his velocity. He is consistently hitting 90-92 on the fastball. That is PLENTY fast enough for a lefty, especially in Safeco. With his 78-82 MPH changeup, and solid command and competitivness he should be great for us.
Beating a dead horse at this point so I just wrapped up my take on Hultzen.. I followed him closely this year (more than anyone on this board) and the Ks DROPPED the second he stopped sitting in the low-to-mid 90s like he was in the first two months.
My opinion is that the early-season velocity is a significant part of his prospect status. He can be a good #2-3 (thats a good Safeco fit) even with the declined velocity, but I want more with a top 2 pick.
Sitting 92-93mph he was monster. He was running a K/9 around 15 with minscule hits+BBs and was completely unhittable.
Start #1) 6.2ip, 3h, 1er, 1bb, 10k, W UAB Start #2) 7.0ip, 3h, 1er, 0bb, 15k, W East Carolina Start #3) 7.0ip, 2h, 0er, 0bb, 11k, W Rider Start #4) 6.2ip, 5h, 0er, 3bb, 14k, W Clemson Start #5) 7.0ip, 6h, 2er, 0bb, 12k, ND Florida State Start #6) 6.0ip, 4h, 1er, 3bb, 9k, W Maryland Start #7) 6.0ip, 4h, 2er, 2bb, 7k, W Virginia Tech Start #8) 8.0ip, 7h, 1er, 1bb, 12k, W Georgia Tech Start #9) 7.0ip, 4h, 0er, 0bb, 9k, W Duke Start #10) 7.1ip, 11h, 2er, 1bb,5k, L NC State Start #11) 7.0ip, 1h, 0er, 1bb, 8k, W Boston College Start #12) 7.0ip, 6h, 3er, 1bb, 9k, L Miami Start #13) 7.2ip, 4h, 2er, 2bb, 10k, L North Carolina Start #14) 6.0ip, 6h, 2er, 1bb, 5k, W Florida State Start #15) 7.0ip, 3h, 1er, 1bb, 12k, W St. Johns Start #16) 5.1ip, 3h, 0er, 3bb, 3k, W UC Irvine Start #17) 6.1ip, 3h, 0er, 3bb, 6k, ND California
First 5 starts = five 10k outings. Last 12 starts - three 10k outings
It does support the notion that he significantly had less k's after the first 5 games, but thankfully it didn't diminish his overall game. Besides the k's, the other things I notice is that he never gave up more than 3er in 17 starts, thats ridiculously impressive, it confirms that he minimizes the damage. Next, he has only gone 8 innings once, seems like his pitch count gets high quickly.
I recorded all of his fastballs from todays game just for you Taro ;), the velocity was taken from ESPN tracker.
Inning 1- 93,93,93,93,94,94,94,94,91,91,90,92,91,92,92,92,94,92,92,91
Inning 2- 92,91,92,91,90,91,92,92,92,92,93,93
Inning 3- 90,90,91,92,93,93,91,91,91,90
Inning 4- 91,91,90,91,91,91,92
Inning 5- 90,91,89,91,91,90,90,91,91
Inning 6- 91,91,92
Inning 7- 90,90
You can also watch the game on replay here, www.espn3.com
Just click on replay and find the Virginia vs California game.
Hultzen struggled with his command in the first few innings, but he was machine like after the 3rd inning. Located his fastball, and his changeup was excellent sitting at 78-80 all night and with nice placement.
Thanks man. :-)
Looks like he was sitting in the low 90s early in the game, and around 90-91mph for the rest of the game.
Thanks for graph above as well. If you re-format a little we could figure out exactly how the numbers differed..
Start #1) 6.2ip, 3h, 1er, 1bb, 10k, W UAB Start #2) 7.0ip, 3h, 1er, 0bb, 15k, W East Carolina Start #3) 7.0ip, 2h, 0er, 0bb, 11k, W Rider Start #4) 6.2ip, 5h, 0er, 3bb, 14k, W Clemson Start #5) 7.0ip, 6h, 2er, 0bb, 12k, ND Florida State Start #6) 6.0ip, 4h, 1er, 3bb, 9k, W Maryland Start #7) 6.0ip, 4h, 2er, 2bb, 7k, W Virginia Tech Start #8) 8.0ip, 7h, 1er, 1bb, 12k, W Georgia Tech Start #9) 7.0ip, 4h, 0er, 0bb, 9k, W Duke Start #10) 7.1ip, 11h, 2er, 1bb,5k, L NC State Start #11) 7.0ip, 1h, 0er, 1bb, 8k, W Boston College Start #12) 7.0ip, 6h, 3er, 1bb, 9k, L Miami Start #13) 7.2ip, 4h, 2er, 2bb, 10k, L North Carolina Start #14) 6.0ip, 6h, 2er, 1bb, 5k, W Florida State Start #15) 7.0ip, 3h, 1er, 1bb, 12k, W St. Johns Start #16) 5.1ip, 3h, 0er, 3bb, 3k, W UC Irvine Start #17) 6.1ip, 3h, 0er, 3bb, 6k, ND California
Good stuff, we can break this down now. More accurately Hultzen's velocity was probably gradually declining. Early season reports had him SITTING mid-90s, but the first report I heard of high 80s being mixed in was start #10, so I'll use that as a cutoff point.
1st half (high reported velocity):
61.3 IPs
1.17 ERA
5.6 H/9
1.5 BB/9
14.3 K/9
9.9 K/BB
2nd half (lower reported velocity):
53.6 IPs
1.67 ERA
6.2 H/9
2.2 BB/9
9.7 K/9
4.46 K/BB
So we can see that while the overall hittability did not change much, the dominance was at a completely different level. Hultzen particularly early in the season was especially dominant. Through his first 5 starts, Hultzen was running a 16.25 K/9!
This is why I think the velocity is extremely important when projected Hultzen's upside. We will find out very early next season what we've got in Hultzen.
I think that is an accurate assesment. The question is why did his velocity decline? As I saw in yesterday's game, he did touch 93 or 94 thirteen times, but gradually lost a few MHP as the game went on. Was that because his arm got tired real quick, or because he over threw the first few innings?
I also wonder if him batting has taken a toll on him physically? He did bat in the game, and got on base 2 times running the bases. I also have read a few articles stating that he takes batting practice on his off days.
I guess we will know next seaosn when he is 100% into pitching and not batting at the AA level.
As a close follower of College Baseball (huge OSU Beaver fan!) I completely disagree with your assessment. I think that the difference in first half and second half statistics has much less to do with reported velocity (especially since I trust "reported" velocities about as far as I can throw the scouts and campus crew who are recording them ;) ), and much more with opponent faced. You have to remember that college players don't have spring training and that the first half of the season is very similar to the big colleges tuning up and against much lesser competition. It is very similar to the MLB guys throwing spring training games to a bunch of AAA'ers. Especially for the teams in big time conferences ( like Virginia and the ACC ). His stats changed drastically because the hitters he faced changed drastically.
Take for instance one of my favorite players, Sam Gaviglio. Who through his first 6 starts of the season was working on 41 straight scoreless innings. Of course it was coming against Connecticut, and Hartford and UC-Santa Barbara. Sam id a great pitcher and was on a great run, but of course once the incredibly tough Pac-10 season started his results took a slight tumble. He still posted nice numbers but it wasn't the almost 14k per 9 he was running in the first half, or the 5 k/bb he threw against non Pac-10 opponent (as opposed to the 2.5 k/bb he had against the pac-10).
Both goo pitchers (Hultzen better of course), both had their stats diminish because of starting conference play. I am sure that fatigue especially towards the end of the season also set in, but this is mostly an opponent effect.
I would say that the ACC's sched in terms of difficult non conference to conference is AT LEAST as drastic as the difficulty going AAA to MLB.
Perhaps thats part of it, but the drastic change in K/9 correlating with velocity loss has to be the main culprit. Usually if a pitcher is striking out 15 K/9 in A-ball , it won't drop to under 10 K/9 in high A. If it does, its a sign that the stuff won't translate as well at higher levels.
Regardless of whether the gun was adequately reflecting 90 or 95 mph, Dreamcatcher's numbers show a definite pattern of velocity dropping from the first to the sixth inning. Stronger early, less strong as the game went on.
Hultzen was not dominant (though he had 6 K in 6.1 IP). He never looked like he had the hitters bamboozled, and he certainly labored in the first inning in particular.
But! he never gave anything up. He just threw a very effective, if not dazzling, game. And he helped himself with a very athletic defensive play.
It is true that Hultzen is a big part of their offense (he hit 5th and stayed in the game as DH after leaving the mound), so I don't know if we can directly translate how his season will go when he's not batting and taking BP and playing 1b (and, trust me, Charlottesville is a hot, humid place once summer weather starts). I wouldn't discount that they think he'll benefit from giving up hitting.
It seems pretty clear that he's capable of Vargas-plus results even without added zip. Admittedly, that would be kind of a letdown with the #2 overall, but that's also a pretty solid floor if you assume Rendon was damaged goods, that the HS kids wouldn't sign and if you were not a Bauer-believer (I wasn't; Taro was). However, I think that we easily could see more from Hultzen. (But considering that the actual Vargas just beat the actual Cole Hamels, maybe we don't need more than a super-Vargas.)
Jason Vargas 2.0 would be realistic mid-range projection, but I'm hoping for more.. Maybe Z is banking on that velocity coming back with a new workout routine or under Eliot's program?
I'll be flabbergasted if 90 vs 95 velo turns out to be key for Hultzen, any more than for Cole Hamels or Erik Bedard...
But will keep an eye, and if that turns out to be the case, Taro gets full credit...
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Without a doubt the CWS teams jump two leagues from the first month to the last...
You keep right on talkin' in your world, and I'll keep right on talkin' in mine :-)
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By the way, watching Cole Hamels carefully in Safeco, I am even more prone to comp him and Hultzen than I was before...
Hamels and Bedard get the hitters 'in between' with their change-speed games, and then by the time they zing that nasty little 91-92 sidearm FB onto the black, it looks 99 mph...
Hamels, Santana, Bedard and Zito -- you could even include the 200-K Jeff Fassero in this -- threw 91'ish fastballs RIGHT BY hitters for 8, 9, 10 strikeouts a game, and the change speed / deception simply never wore old for them...
If the Mariners are thinking ANYthing other than the Hamels-Santana-Bedard-Zito template for Hultzen, then yes they are setting themselves up for disappointment ... if they are wanting Danny Hultzen to pitch like CC Sabathia, they are not gonna receive the desired services for payment rendered...
How to explain the huges K loss correlating with velocity though?
And the video? Where is he throwing a Santana/Hamels change? He doesn't have their 3rd pitches either (curve and slider).
That it isn't a huge K loss. And that correlation definitely does not imply causation, both as a rule and in this specific case.
I suppose if James Paxton had a month or two with 14 K's, and then a month or two with 10, we wouldn't boil a big pot of soup off that oyster.
And whatever Hultzen's K loss has been, there have been other factors present, such as strength-of-opposition. If Paxton jumps to AA (roughly CWS level) and fans 9-10 a game, you going to panic?
Hey champ. This isn't MLB. The strength of opp is all over the place. It's not like Felix was fanning 10, and then dropped to 4, against the same opponents. The stat quality is volatile in college. You cannot rely on stats in college the way you do in MLB.
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The change does show on some videos, but in this case the scouting reports weigh more heavily. McNamara also stated that Hultzen's game is his offspeed repertoire.
Right, but the Ks clearly dropped over a larger sample. College level ball is generously High A even at the high-end (realistically closer to single A). I'd be more concerned about Hultzen if his K/9 dropped so extremely because he faced slightly better competition. That would suggest that his game isn't going to translate at the higher levels. Someone like Hamels was King 14+ in AAA.
I don't think thats the case though. With Hultzen's deception his fastball comes onto hitters a lot quicker than the raw velocity. It makes sense that he would be untouchable when he was sitting mid-90s early in the year. That may as well be upper 90s from a hitter's standpoint. Even at 92-93mph it probably looks like mid-90s.
Honestly Doc, do you grade him with a Santana-change based on the video? We have two seperate games fully taped and I'm not seeing that kind of change.
watch the game vs California. His changeup especially in inning 3-6 was excellent and definitely a plus pitch. It was sitting 78-80, and combine that with his 90-92 MHP fastball and it's over for hitters when he is commanding it.
Plus for sure, but Santana/Hamels?
I think Hultzen is going to be a good SP, no arguments. If hes hes sitting low 90s he has a shot being an immediate ace though.
Haven't watched enough of Santana and Hamels to compare their change to Hultzen, but from what I saw of Hamels the other day, I think Hultzen has at least 90% of his change. Both with great late break/sink(Hamels probably a tad more), but I think Hultzen has even better deception than Hamels.
IMO the strike out decline is related to his velocity drop but there are other factors at work too. One of them is that hitters started giving up. Irvine wasn't the only team that started playing for one run against him, slap-bunting and giving up power to stop striking out and just hoping to get on base. It didn't hurt hultzen in era but it cut his k numbers.
If major league hitters are willing to swallow their pride then maybe they can render hultzens game less effective. Moyer has 250 wins that prove hitters have a lot of pride at that level and that a properly enacted change speed game is always effective, at 82 mph or 92.
Struck out 8 of the 10 batters he faced in 3.0 IP (one fluky single -- bounced out of the fielder's glove, one popup), then left with "flu symptoms." Replay ought to be on espn3.com.
Taro, you can stop worrying now;)
Hultzen's fastball velocity from todays game.
Inning 1) 93,93,93,93,94,94,94,93,94,94
Inning 2) 92,93,94,95,95,95,93,94,94,93
Inning 3) 92,93,92,92,93,93,93,93,92,92,92,94
3ip, 1h, oer, 0bb, 8k
left the game because of flu like symptoms.
The velocity in the first couple of innings is what Hulzen was sitting at early in the season. I'm still a bit concerned because it seems to die off in the middle-later in the game, and has been inconsistent this year, but its good sign that it came back in his last start of the year.
If Hultzen can sit around 93-94mph as a pro, I think he has an excellent shot at being an immediate impact player. If hes sitting 90-91mph like more recently, I'm a lot less high on him..
Or maybe he ends up in the middle? I think its impossible to know until he gets a couple months of starts in the minors next year.
This situation is going to seriously test the quality of our relationship, Taro. We may need to go to couples counseling, before it's over with.
I see another French / Fister rift on the horizon. It's liable to get ugly.
Great memories from 2009.. :-) I was clearly wrong in hindsight on Fister and that was a borderline flame war. Let's pass on having Part 2.
Hultzen looked like he should have stayed in bed, but came out firing and dominating. Too bad he couldn't stick around to finish the game. But those radar gun readings look great, and you can't argue with the results. The kid's a bonafide stud and a gamer.