Chat: 12/2/15 2:33pm
Chat: 12/2/15 2:33pm
Shouts
<p>Agreed, Doc. I don't get how a "#5" suddenly becomes worthless because he's ours and not with St. Louis. There is always a bit of crapshoot with prospects. Heck, at this point, Kivlehan looks tons better than Deej. Hey, I'm not totally bashing the deal. But rather it just came about in a weird way, that I don't quite understand. That, and we swapped out a guy I think will hit. I would be less concerned is Martin wasn't so abysmal (so far) vs. LHP. He seemingly demands a platoon....which will give us 5 OF's, a DH and (it seems) 2 1B. If the platoon guy is an O'Malley or "was" a Kivlehan, then you have some flexibility. But it makes no difference, I suppose. 'Tis done. I like the Karns get. I'm not yet sure about this one. At worst, Dipoto is batting .500 on the Moe-scale. I'll try to trust that Kivlehan tanks and Martin goes all Edgar on the AL. Go team.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - Cool Papa Bell - 12/3/15 6:05pm<br><p>Who said Kivlehan is worthless?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Tacoma Rain - 12/3/15 6:53pm<br><p>In the shout outs and in the comments, the number 5 Mariner prospect is compared to:<br />
1. 5th prize in carnival game<br />
2. Not in top 10 prospects for Cubs and several other teams<br />
3. Probably not even in top 20 prospects for a few teams<br />
*** so maybe not worthless but pretty close</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - jemanji - 12/3/15 7:52pm<br><p>Not you CPB and of course we're not trashing a viewpoint that says he IS worthless.</p>
<p>In the debate below there were a couple of remarks that he is legitimately a PTBNL type, far overrated, etc. Which is fine.</p>
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<p>CS - thanks for the link. And it helps with the discussion over whether Kivlehan is an insubstantial prospect. Also helps me become a bit more sympathetic towards the deal.</p>
<p>BlissedJ - Josh went in and personally squared away your account to "SSI Community Member." Hope everything's smooth now. ... Other readers, please take note. Same available to you on request :- )</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/3/15 6:34pm<br><p>Now that's customer service! Thanks to the both of you! I'm sure Dipoto will have me testing the comments section again any day now :)</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/4/15 3:47pm<br><p>Jeff, how about doing the same thing for me. (jokestar)<br />
Thanks in advance.</p>
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<p>Explain to me, if you guys can, why Kivlehan just wasn't included in the original deal. Kivlehan and Wilhelmson for their glove and their less useful arm would have been smoother. I'm not sure I would have liked it any more than I do now, but it would have had symmetry. I would have liked to see Kivlehan patrol CF to get a sense of his chops there. Alas....#Texas got some taters and we got leather. If the leather doesn't hit .720-ish vR, then it can't chase down enough flies in Safeco CF to make it worthy. If he's the</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - jemanji - 12/3/15 5:22pm<br><p>That's maybe the weirdness that throws me off, Moe. Can't remember the last time I saw a PTBNL turn out to be an org top-5 prospect.</p>
<p>And this stuff about, well it's the MARINERS' top-5 prospect ... sigh. True, the Clippers' #6 player is different from the Lakers' #6 player, but invoking the magic word "Lakers" doesn't make the player a nonfactor.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - csiems - 12/3/15 5:53pm<br><p>I'm not really contributing here other than posting the link, but:<br />
@jaskline2007 There were logistical reasons.— Seattle Mariners (@Mariners) December 3, 2015</p>
<p>Did Texas ask us to delay naming PTBNL so they could sort out their 40 man first I wonder?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - jemanji - 12/3/15 7:56pm<br><p>Even with 'logistical reasons' for concealing the fact that a 'PTBNL' is actually one of your best and brightest prospects, you would expect some *indication* that Tom Wilhelmsen wasn't the main player in the deal, wouldn't you?</p>
<p>Been watching baseball for a while now and don't ever remember a deal being handled this way. Not that it's the biggest deal in the world. Just very off-putting.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - MtGrizzly - 12/4/15 5:43am<br><p>Agree that it was strange. If it was a TX 40-man issue then why take Jones at all, just to drop him from the 40-man in order to make room for the PTBNL?</p>
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<p>So...to #Texas...this deal was Kivlehan for Martin, with Wilhelmson as a useful complimentary piece. I still think this deal blows.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - Tacoma Rain - 12/3/15 4:28pm<br><p>Ditto</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - jemanji - 12/3/15 5:18pm<br><p>Kivlehan for Martin would have been reasonable, and the imperative was for DiPoto to get a signature CF glove. So that's cool. </p>
<p>Then you're dealing Wilhelmsen for Anthony Bass. Again, Wilhelmsen has a 96 fastball, an "80" yellow hammer and 67 lifetime saves; Bass has been fringe.</p>
<p>That said, Kivlehan-Martin as the key to the deal, with the relievers secondary, that's a paradigm that is easier to live with for me.</p>
<p>Good stuff Matt.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Tacoma Rain - 12/3/15 6:58pm<br><p>So who then demanded that Jones be a part of this deal?<br />
Daniels really wanted Jones to be a free agent that bad?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - moethedog - 12/5/15 3:21pm<br><p>If the Kivlehan-Martin swap was the heart of this deal, then it means that a team that regularly kicks the snot out of us, wanted Kivlehan more than they wanted their glovey 88 OPS+ CF. Easy power, to all fields, he has. This deal works. 1. If Martin is the '14 Martin....and does it over several seasons. 2. Kivlehan doesn't look like Joe Rudi.</p>
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<p>Great stuff with the #AskDipoto thread on Twitter. Looks like Kivlehan was the primary piece in the Martin deal.</p>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en" xml:lang="en"><p><a href="https://twitter.com/StephenHatch">@StephenHatch</a> He was the player included from the beginning. We understand that you have to give to get, and wish Patrick well. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AskDipoto?src=hash">#AskDipoto</a>— Seattle Mariners (@Mariners) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mariners/status/672522091271327744">December 3, 2015</a></p></blockquote>
<p>I think DiPoto is gravely underestimating Safeco's ability to destroy even good hitters if they are a bad park fit. Ask future HOFer Adrian Beltre. It didn't eat Cruz, but Cruz is a better park fit. I can't say any of the new acquisitions are likely to find more than the occasional #Texas Leaguer. Still waiting to see the whole plan. And to watch Kivlehan turn into Nelson Cruz for #Texas. That'll be fun.</p>
<p>It's ridiculous how far the pendulum has swung toward the notion that 30 homer power is replacement level and shouldn't be paid for. Sorry...it's just ridiculous.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 2:35pm<br><p>Maybe, like Doc says, the World Series winner has a disproportionate influence on baseball philosophy the next year.</p>
<p>2015: Royals win, homers are out.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 2:38pm<br><p>Would Carter and Alvarez have been non tendered if the Blue Jays won?</p>
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<p>Listened to JeDi about the first base sitch. He doesn't sound as if he is really looking for a first baseman. He says he likes Jesus Montero but maybe will get a third benchie to go with Andie Wilkins. <a href="http://mynorthwest.com/374/2861982/Mariners-GM-Jerry-Dipoto-explains-flu... target="_parent">http://mynorthwest.c...</a></p>
<p>Hmm.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - csiems - 12/3/15 1:50pm<br><p>Respectfully disagree with this. Check out the #AskDipoto feed on Mariners main account. He says "If the season started today, some combination of Jesus Montero and Andy Wilkins" would man 1B. But last week he was saying Trumbo would be there if the season started today. I'm starting to see that "if the season started today" is Dipoto's GM-speak for "don't count on it."</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 2:33pm<br><p>I know, right. JeDi is like Darth Sidious. He always talks genteel, until about a minute before he fries you with force lighting. Can't be sure if he's genuine about Montero or just shilling him for a trade. </p>
<p>These mind games caused Moe to have a break from reality about a month ago.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - csiems - 12/3/15 3:24pm<br><p>lol! When Dipoto goes out and trades for Joey Votto, though, I'm not going to quibble about anything he says about Montero.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Tacoma Rain - 12/3/15 4:33pm<br><p>And yesterday Dipoto said that Clevenger will be playing in the first base platoon</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/4/15 3:41pm<br><p>Didn't Dipoto say that Montero earned the chance to play next year, either here or on some other team. That wouldn't make me feel fuzzy all over if I was Jesus.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/4/15 3:42pm<br><p>By the way, that last post was from jokestar</p>
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<p>Chris Carter and Pedro Alverez getting Non-Tendered gives further context to the Trumbo trade. We should be happy that JeDi got something useful at all for Trumbo, Astros and Pirates got diddly squat for their high k, high power 1bs... In fact, maybe we should sign one of those guys... :) Seriously, how much will Pedro Alverez cost???</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 10:49am<br><p>Those $5-6 million dollar paychecks are a little steep for demonstrated 30 bomb power. Maybe the Mariners could invite one of those guys to Spring training. Sheesh.</p>
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<p>On a different note... DiPoto had this to say about the Trumbo trade, "I explained all of this to Mark. He’s going to an ideal place to hit but it just wasn’t an ideal fit for us on our side."</p>
<p>It seems to me like JeDi is keeping an eye toward what is best for the player he is trading away as well as what is best for his own team. If he choose to work Trumbo and PK to #Baltimore and #Texas *in part* because he knew they could succeed in those places, then that is MIGHTILY magnanimous of him! In fact maybe TOO kind of him… Hopefully we don’t play the Orioles or Rangers in the AL Championship and get skewered by Trumbo or PK </p>
<div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 10:42am<br><p>I think that it is just the opposite. Baltimore is not an ideal place for the Mark Trumbos of the world. Any feeb can hit it out of Arlington or Camden yards. It takes someone with man muscles to make Safeco look small.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - diderot - 12/3/15 11:25am<br><p>Hoping Dipoto's idea of an ideal first baseman for us is not....Casey Kotchman.</p>
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<p>So that makes the deal Wilhelmson and Kivlehan for Martin. Martin is Jones' max upside if he ever learns to field...I get that this is an upgrade. I don't think making Kivlehan a throw-in makes sense though.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/3/15 8:40am<br><p>Why do people keep calling Kivlehan a "throw in"? A reliever of Wilhemsen's caliber does not get you 3 years of a starting position player. A B-prospect was needed to get this done.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Cool Papa Bell - 12/3/15 8:59am<br><p>To be clear, it was Jones who was the "throw-in", NOT Kivlehan.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - OBF - 12/3/15 9:10am<br><p>Totally agree, Papa, it just looks awkward because a PTBNL is *USUALLY* the throw in. Switch jones and Kivlehan in the trade, and nobody blinks...</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - SABR Matt - 12/3/15 9:43am<br><p>I would still blink. I do not trade my #5 prospect for someone as lame as Leonys Martin.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - OBF - 12/3/15 9:51am<br><p>Being the #5 prospect in this farm system is like being the 5th best prize in a carnival game. You can get a nicer teddy bear at the dollar store... ;) Seriously where would Kivlehan be ranked if he was a Cub, Red Sox or Twins prospect last year???</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - OBF - 12/3/15 9:52am<br><p>Also, Matt, would you have blinked if it had been Romero instead of Kivlehan as the PTBNL?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Cool Papa Bell - 12/3/15 9:57am<br><p>You wouldn't trade a B-prospect for a major league starting position player?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/3/15 11:05am<br><p>The thing about Kivlehan is that SSI prophesied good things for him well before his AA chainsaw massacre. I think Spectator was the original Kivlefan. We've been rooting for the guy for four years. There is no point in following minors ball at all, if you can correctly scout a Major leaguer, and then see him traded to Texas for a bucket of balls the season before his call up.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Cool Papa Bell - 12/3/15 11:27am<br><p>Martin and Bass aren't "a bucket of balls", they are proven major leaguers, which is not the case with Kivlehan. And you really shouldn't be following the minor leagues if you are going to get upset when a decent prospect is traded away since that is a routine occurrence.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/3/15 11:58am<br><p>CPB - the difference here is in the phrase "proven major league starter," right. You have seen Martin's slash line from 2015? He wasn't playing for Tejas next year. If Martin can bat 85 and win a Gold Glove, the trade is good, no argument. Says here there's little chance o' that.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Cool Papa Bell - 12/3/15 12:06pm<br><p>Why do you only look at 2015?</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - Tacoma Rain - 12/3/15 4:40pm<br><p>I'm still at a loss at why people do not think Kivlehan was the M's BEST hitting prospect. Deej and Kivlehan played in the same games over the last 3 years and Kivlehan dominated Deej.<br />
Further, Alex Jackson can't even hit at the rookie ball level.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - moethedog - 12/5/15 3:16pm<br><p>Must almost agree Tac. I would actually put Pizzano as our best hitting prospect, but I could live with Kivlehan there.....ooops, could have.</p>
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<p>Well, Jones non-tendered, that answers one of Dr. D's questions fo sho ... suddenly he feels very inept ... :- )</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - anonymous - 12/3/15 8:04am<br><p>And the Rangers have 3 open spots on their 40-man, so they had no need to drop him. They literally would rather take a flyer on a Rule 5 guy than play Jones.</p>
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<p>For sure blissedj. Will check into it :- )</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - blissedj - 12/3/15 1:11pm<br><p>Thanks Doc! I'll play by the rules: respectful debate for everyone and no cursing :)</p>
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<p>Any chance I can get the training wheels taken off for the comments section? Hard to join the fun if you have to sit in moderation :)</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - bpj23 - 12/3/15 7:49am<br><p>Same here, I know I've been posting a lot, but it says I got blocked now when I try to comment..</p>
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<p>Alvarez demands a platoon (career .601 vL) and he's the antithesis of the Dipoto template. I think Dipoto might slow-play the 1B situation and assume he can get a guy who walks, no problem, or move Cano. But he does need to get into the pitcher market, guys are signing.</p>
<p>Options for 1B: trade for Hanley Ramirez (ugh) or swoop in and cheap-sign Pedro Alvarez, who was just non-tendered, or Chris Carter (less appealing)...OR...move Cano and cheap-sign Jose-Miguel Fernandez, who just defected from #Cuba and is the country's #3 prospect at second base.</p>
<p>TO DO: Lowe and Oh. 'Kuma and (/or >_<) Chen. Trade for Ramirez with 1/2 his contract covered. Get at least RF depth, but maybe get Ozuna when/if Marlins get real. Turn the HotStove around.</p>
<p>This is fun. More moves please!</p>
<p>MLB Network says Indians need RH power 1B/DH. Wonder if Montero would be of interest for Tyler Naquin, who, although he hits LH, might be used in the CF/RF role I like Ozuna in. Both he and Boog Powell probably aren't ready right now, but might be ready by mid-season. But really nice AAA depth.</p>
<p>One thing you gotta give to Dipoto -- he can sure make this board churn.. Wow -- I've never had to back to previous pages to see the multitude of comments made since this morning! Cool!</p>
<p>As long as the broadcasters say Ah-Oh-Ki (A like Albert) instead of Eh-Ou-Kee, I'll be happy.</p>
<p>Meh. Mostly seems like we're moving stuff. Getting stuff in return. But the catching combo looks good. And he signed Guti. I like Martin in CF. you need a top notch defender out there in Safeco. I like the idea of Ozuna in CF. Spellcheck suggests we nickname him Ozone should we get him. I kinda like that. "A deep, deep fly ball, Oh! Caught in the Ozone."</p>
<p>A Wilkins/Montero platoon at first is workable until something better comes along. Aoki...well, after the Ackley years, that almost looks like an upgrade.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - MtGrizzly - 12/2/15 8:09pm<br><p>A Wilkins-Montero platoon at 1B will tip me over into full on rage.</p>
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<p>I don't think they will slash payroll but I don't think it will go up either. "In this case, we’re bringing in a backup left-handed hitting catcher along with payroll and roster flexibility as we move into the hot stove portion of the offseason, DiPoto."</p>
<p>Well put DaddyO. Back atcha. I agree - DiPoto has an almost odd self-confidence but he's not rude about it. I guess when you think about it, that's a plus for somebody under so much pressure. Leads to strong-mindedness, at least.</p>
<p>Doc, great point about DiPoto "advertising" his advanced abilities. Good word choice. Almost brash but devoid of the rudeness associated with that word. I prefer humble competence, but in this case I'll take competence however I can get it. I want to emphasize that I have no idea if there is a rhyme to his reason. It's possible that he has a significant move up his sleeve that makes the rhyme clear. It's also possible that he's got a Pete Carroll-ish rhyme that will explode on the scene once he gets a chance to implement it. But at this point, it's also possible he's just a guy who sells himself well who's just a little too full of himself. No idea. The thing is, with Jack we were always waiting for that move that made sense out of everything, and it never really came. He'd chock a roster full of 1B/DH types and we waited for him to trade one of them so the roster made sense, only...he didn't.</p>
<p>Wow... no Choi, no Kivlehan, and no real improvements on either added. I think "sell high" may be a foreign concept to DiPoto. Looking forward to another offseason of having my #Baseball joy sucked right out through my eye sockets.</p>
<p>DaddyO - agreed. The great thing is, DiPoto *advertises* that he's got it wired, in a hard-sell way that you don't see (let's say) Pete Carroll or Phil #Jackson use. I'm not down on him at all - he'd be my hire over the next four years - and you can't take his Servaises and Bogars away from him. But, man, if he doesn't deliver he's going to be a proverb.</p>
<div class="indented">Reply - mojician - 12/2/15 4:28pm<br><p>I'm sure he will get us to the Wild Card Game one way or another. But man this is nauseating. I feel like an Orc fan.</p>
</div><div class="indented">Reply - jemanji - 12/2/15 6:00pm<br><p>That Orc fan observation has legs Mojo. </p>
<p>The parallels between Beane and DiPoto may be more thickly arranged than we ever feared. Or hoped for. Or something.</p>
<p>Keep it comin.' ... Kyle Seager for who? Well, prob'ly not. Doubt that Kyle Seager ever cussed out a suit.</p>
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<p>Matt... would you have been equally as dismayed if the PTBNL had been Romero instead of Kivlehan?</p>