Social Impact of $240,000,000 salaries
The "reward" entitlement mentality

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Today at BJOL:

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Everyone talks about average salaries; wouldn't median salary be a better indicator? Or is that what the media mean when they say "average," and they're just being sloppy? I expect the medial salary is quite a bit lower than the average, as it would take quite a few minimum salary players to balance out each ARod or Pujols, etc.
Asked by: DanaKing
Answered: 12/30/2013
A better indicator of what?
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As to large salaries for athletes and movie stars. I always thought it was better for the performers to get the money than the owners. No one has ever paid to see an owner hit a baseball, or captivate us on the screen. One possible solution is a 'super' tax bracket. Income beyond some huge amount, say $2MM per year gets taxed at a much higher rate than our current highest marginal bracket, which I believe is around 40%. Make that number around 65% and at least some good will come of it.
Asked by: 3for3
Answered: 12/30/2013

Those are really good 1950s ways of thinking about the problem. Sorry; that was a little harsh. Slow down. Take time to think through the problem. You're trying to tell us that the failed solutions of the past will work now. They won't. You're trying to tell us that the rhetoric of the past is deep wisdom. It isn't. These are just knee-jerk comments. You can do much better.

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Bill, the average salary in mlb is now, if I'm not mistaken, around $3 million. If it continues to increase, as I'm sure it will, do you foresee a time when it could lead to a backlash among the fans? Thanks.
Asked by: manhattanhi
Answered: 12/29/2013
Not in exactly that way. I do believe there will be a sea change in the perception of sports salaries--and the salaries of movie stars and CEOs--and the public will turn against these very large numbers, and begin to denounce them. Do I think that will happen as a direct result of escalations in baseball salaries. . .no.
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This social-political post is motivated, in part, because yesterday at my church we had a Philippine friend give us a presentation about his life in the Philippines.  Loaded with death, starvation, and many other forms of tragedy.

The man was surprisingly happy, well-adjusted, and was not bitter about his lot in life.  He was warm towards us as rich Americans, generally, and tearfully grateful for all the help that we'd sent him and his friends over the years.

He cried when talking about the death of his mother at age 11.  His mother charged him to take care of his younger siblings; soon after, he and his siblings were all separated.  He was sad talking about it, but he does not blame anyone for his difficult life.  People in Third World countries tend not to feel like 50" HD TV's "are the way things ought to be."  

People in those countries tend to feel like challenge is the natural flow of life -- not something to resent, but something to cope with.  0-0 draws, in soccer, annoy Americans.  They do not annoy Bulgarians.

Later, this young man found a sponsor, went back, and gathered his siblings to live in a Nipa hut in his local preacher's back yard.  

Eventually he became a doctor, managing a care center for the poor and mentally diseased.  Now he comes to the States and politely offers us chances to sponsor the work.

Seeing this Filipino's optimism and positive bearing, that was a life-changing event.  No words will capture it; you'd have to have been there.  :- )

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We had a family member, since passed, a college professor.  He deeply resented the incomes of the richest Americans, and called for 90% tax rates on them.  90% plus.  

(William F. Buckley once asked a debate opponent, "What, in principle, would be your objection to a 100% tax rate on everyone?"  Which, of course, would be slavery.)

I asked this family member, "Supposing you were the only Native American, in a community of 5,000, who knew how to whittle flutes.  You had sold 1,000 of them for sea shells, and had by far the most sea shells of any member of the community ..."

"Another Native American, #1,001, comes up and asks you to make another flute.  What, in principle, do you see as the social damage occurring because of this next transaction?"

You make the transaction illegal, what you have really done is prevent #1,001 from having a flute.

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Surprisingly, he didn't have much of an answer.  He thought a while, and thought "No one person should have that much power."

But in America, $240,000,000 does not buy a lot of power, as such.  Robinson Cano is not going to dominate the Puget Sound region.  He's going to have more power than you or I do, but he's not going to have as much power as a minor politician.

If it were merely a question of regulating Bill Gates' power, you can make restrictions on what he could DO with his money -- you could regulate the USE of his money, rather than the ACCUMULATION of his money.  You could make a rule that Nintendo must not donate money to Rakuten.

This "leftist" family member (whom I loved dearly) did not send any of his income overseas, to third world countries, that I was ever aware of.  Some "leftists" do, of course.  This particular person was always way, way too far behind on his debts to do so....

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My family member would talk about it being an "evil" that X% of America's wealth was concentrated in Y% of the people.  (His salary was above the median, and he never gave money to those in lower social strata, so I questioned whether his motivation was compassion.)

Certainly there are consequences to social strata.  But in America, the "poor" have cell phones, DVR's and 50 pounds to lose.  

My mother, when she was 80 years old and using a walker, had her own carpeted private apartment (!!), a nice TV, plenty of food, a personal doctor, and so forth.  Social Security, the WA State food program, etc etc, provided her a "dream life" by rural Philippine standards.

There does exist "income inequality."  The phrase itself makes the situation sound evil; the language itself accuses society of unfairness.  

But is it "evil" for one child to have 32 crayons when another one has 16?  I've thought about it for a long time, many years, and I don't know why it is inherently evil for Robinson Cano to have privileges that I don't.  The only inherent argument against it, that I can see, arises out of jealousy.

This family member couldn't feasibly make the argument that a poor person, paying $7 for a bleacher seat, was being exploited by social evil (since Howard Lincoln & Co. accumulated another fraction of the poor person's wealth).

You make the transaction illegal, you simply make it impossible for the poor person to watch a baseball game.

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Sure, it would be nice if everybody were rich.  (In America, we've essentially accomplished that.  Anybody willing to work 40 hours at a fast food job, and stay clean of drugs and alcohol, lives a "dream life" in my Philippine friend's world).  

But for me, the poorer person in relative terms, to resent Robinson Cano (because 50 million people purchase the spectacle of his playing baseball), does me the poorer person no good.

Sure, the rich should be generous.  The media is not generally eager to make it visible when they are generous.  How much money has Bill Gates given away?

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Here, by the way, are 20 things the rich do, that the poor don't.  For example, 80% of wealthy people are -- right now -- focused on some single goal, such as losing 20 lbs.  Only 12% of very poor people are.  The fact is, some people are poor because of circumstances, such as my Philippine friend when he was young.  It's also a fact that our choices have consequences.  Both statements are true; they're not exclusive.

As Bill James put it, Robinson Cano indeed has an entitlement mentality.  But it is a distinct mentality, the mentality that says "I've worked so hard, and am so talented, that I am entitled to rewards."

How hard, exactly, do you think Robinson Cano worked to get to this point?  How much focus did he apply?

It seems to me that athletes such as Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers, hitting $100M paydays, are positive role models in terms of effort-and-reward.  I don't think that many 14-year-old boys are oblivious to the idea that they worked fanatically to attain success.  Junior high schoolers realize that earning a letter, in football, will require big sacrifices.

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In the case of my family member, there honestly was nothing behind his "tax the rich" agenda, other than jealousy.  And personally, I don't see jealousy as moving the society anyplace it really wants to go.

I've got a blind spot here, because I know that some people want Robinson Cano's salary taxed at 65%, 80%, 95% for positive reasons.  Those reasons are opaque to me.  I'd appreciate it if somebody would explain them to me.

Because if Tom Scholz has a billion CD's of his music, and I want to give him another $10 for a CD, I don't see how it harms society.  By "I don't see how," I mean that I don't see how.

Respectfully,

Jeff

Comments

1

The key lesson, I think, is that taxing the beneficiaries of extreme wealth on the assumption that the wealth is finite and should be more evenly distributed (or because we have needs and "they can afford it") will lead to the diminishing of total wealth. Everything will cost the poor more...including the government services those tax dollars feed.
Speaking as a poor person who is watching the health care market completely collapse due to a redistributive scheme and thinking "I'm going to die younger than I should, because I won't have access to a specialist and won't be able to afford decent insurance"...I can only wish that more folks were willing to let society produce wealth freely.

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misterjonez's picture

My mom once said something to the effect of, "Communism is the ideal. It's really what we should all understand is the best theoretical way for people to interact. But people don't really work like that, so theory has to take a backseat to practice. In practice, the marketplace will sort these things out and people will be happier for it. The free market isn't my first choice if I'm drawing up a world government, but I understand that my chosen philosophy just doesn't work, at least not here on Earth."
The part people largely ignore is the carrot half of the carrot-and-stick equation. You need to put these ideals up there for people to see in order to encourage them. How much money do professional table tennis players make? Not that much; but don't you think more people would devote their time to practicing table tennis if the top pro's were making $15mil/year?
Social constructs are much, much more complex than the average person appreciates (at least verbally). And like Matt says: eventually you can hinder a market so badly that nobody will engage in it any more. What's the impetus for a person to choose medicine over law if it's a coin flip when they go sign up for their first round of University classes? With socialized medicine in specific, the reward (or 'carrot') is going to disappear, so the talent pool will become weaker and therefore the service will be worse. This will not happen immediately by any means, but it will happen. Then where is society?

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Here we have the 2013 unmarried individual filing joint return tax rate:

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Not over $8,925                                 10% of the taxable income 
 
Over $8,925 but                                 $892.50 plus 15% of 
not over $36,250                                the excess over $8,925 
 
Over $36,250 but                               $4,991.25 plus 25% of 
not over $87,850                                the excess over $36,250 
 
Over $87,850 but                               $17,891.25   plus 28% of 
not over $183,250                              the excess over $87,850 
 
Over $183,250 but                             $44,603.25 plus 33% of 
not over $398,350                              the excess over $183,250 
 
Over $398,350 but                             $115,586.25 plus 35% of 
not over $400,000                              the excess over $398,350 
 
Over $400,000                                   $116,163.75 plus 39.6% of 
                                                         the excess over $400,000 
 

 
The 2013 median income is roughly $51,000.
 
 
If a person makes approximately the median income, is not married, and has some dependents or some other exemption (the child tax credit is $3000 per child in 2013), then it works out that the person owes no taxes.  The taxes that the person paid are simply refunded to him or her some time after the return is filed.
 
This means, that almost every person below the 50th percentile of American wage earners pays no taxes or only pays a nominal amount.  Is this a good thing, on a psychological level?  If a person pays taxes in some amount that hurts them, they have invested something into the country.  Being a citizen cost them.  Are the people that did not pay taxes invested in the country the same way that a person is who paid a full 40 percent of his income?
 
When a person complains about the richest 1 percent taking all of the money, he is working on a long line of assumptions:
 
1. That the government will make better use of a person's money than he would.
2. That others are entitled to share a person's wealth.
3. That economics is a zero sum game, that is, when the rich get richer, it is because they exploited a poor person to get there.  This is only partly the case.  For some things, like gasoline, there is only so much of it.  For another thing, like apples, there is not only so much of it.  If people wanted more apples, new orchards can be planted, and in 10 years, or however it takes to grow an apple tree, more apples can be obtained.
 
Other things, especially manufacturing, are like the apple market in that wealth is nearly inexhaustible.  Supposing you have a plastic widget, perhaps a Lego.  Did the amount of oil that you used to form the ABS plastic cost you anything material in relation to the price of the Lego?  The correct answer is no.   The retail price for ABS in spooled form (for use in a 3d printer) is roughly $20 per kilogram.  You can make a lot of Legos with 2.2 lbs of plastic.  A Lego City Fireship weighs 1 kilogram and it costs $182.17 on Amazon. So, the material involved comprises 11 percent of the value of the Lego kit.  Also, it is safe to assume that Lego gets a much better price on ABS than retail.  When you buy a Lego, you aren't paying for ABS plastic.  You are paying for precise milling, for toy designers, for instruction drafters, for marketing, and for quality assurance.   
 
When you take the money away from the richest individuals, you are disincentivising them from inventing a better use for ABS plastic, which is where real wealth lies.  Occasionally the government invents cool things too.  See the Boeing-Bell V-22 Osprey, or the Ferry to Nowhere the MV Susitna, spaceships, etcetera, but for the most part, private industry drives invention and production, and the government either helps it or gets in its way.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

4

In every Presidential debate, the Republican candidate tries desperately to make the point that a large fraction of Americans pay NO federal tax.  While the media tries desperately to obfuscate this point.
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I could not agree more with your last paragraph, Mojo.  Not because I am fiscally conservative -- I'm not, in principle -- but because it is what I've observed.  The American dream, to become wealthy, goes hat-in-hand with these brilliant inventions which their creators work fanatically to push forward.
I get the impression that even President Obama, once he took office, came to grips with the dynamics behind the amazing achievements of American economy and science.
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3D printers, those to me are the harbingers of the really scary Star Trek technology era.  No?

5

In Acts 2, the first Christian church VOLUNTARILY had "all things common."  They just threw everything they owned into a pot and shared.  But it was voluntary.
You and I would agree, I think, that that is the IDEAL...  I would do that same thing, myself, if there was a community of people with whom I felt comfortable doing it.

6

One of Rush Limbaugh's many aphorisms.  Along with "[Some politicians] want to punish success" and "Sorry, the earth is not fragile" ... :- )
For all the criticism Limbaugh takes -- and I'm hardly a Dittohead -- he did indeed turn around American debate on an incredible number of issues.

7

Matt, I respect your baseball knowledge and views, but you have established no bona fides with me for political or health care knowledge/expertise. So please provide objective, reliable evidence to back up your statement "watching the health care market completely collapse".

8

...and apologies for the rambling reply.
I grew up in Seattle in the seventies and eighties in what qualifies as an extremely liberal family by US standards in 2013 -- for those that were born in the 80's or 90's, the political landscape has shifted significantly since 1976 when I entered kindergarten at Schmitz Park Elementary in West Seattle. I remember the days when Reagan was viewed by some as the end of days and in retrospect he did represent a significant change of course.
I became a full fledged adult during the Clinton years, where we had a 'liberal' president that was more 'conservative' than Nixon (I am so frustrated by how our political vocabulary obfuscates and vilifies, rather than describes and clarifies, the core challenges we face collectively). I spent a lot of time in school and now do scientific research at a university for a living. My job as presently defined would be impossible without federal taxes.
This tedious preamble is to give those of you that are not bored already some context for what is to follow.
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I admire Robinson Cano and his genius. He earns his pay and nothing, other than lack of talent and commitment, barred me from his success ;) Why I am replying to your post is that I am troubled by the present state of discourse in our country. We so quickly get rapped around the good-and-evil axle, that we fail to focus on our goals as a collective. Some try to trivialize Cano's genius by emphasizing the lack of utilitarian significance of entertainment while failing to appreciate the transcendent inspiration of genuine brilliance. Marshawn Lynch running the football is life affirming. Marshawn Lynch can lift the spirits of a city, a region. On rare occasion, athletic achievement can lift the spirits of the world. Why should it be trivial to place a value on such genius?
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To the more specific question of taxation; the topic should not be discussed independent of objectives. We, as a collective, must decide what we value collectively and believe we can best achieve collectively. This can only be achieved by speaking thoughtfully of our dreams and more importantly listening to the dreams of others. I acknowledge the wistful optimism of my comment, but only regarding the difficulty of the task, not the importance of it.
We live such a privileged existence I believe we fail to realize how much we have to loose. Let's take an example, like the iPhone. Apple makes a remarkable profit margin on the iPhone, but what if the US Navy did not bother to insure the safety of the ships coming from east Asia full of iPhones? What if pirates were a problem in the Pacific? The American people, in part, pay for the security of those iPhones and consequently Apple's profits. The fact that lefty wackos do not appreciate that many benefit from affordable smart phones and righty wackos fail to appreciate that private enterprise is dependent on collective infrastructure, does not change the fact that we must decide what infrastructure to generate collectively and how to equitably share the burden of maintaining said infrastructure.
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We are already at the point where public education only gets you access to free daycare; if you want academics also, you have to be able to pay via the housing entrance fee in good school districts. Should we continue to divest from public education and divert tax dollars going to dysfunctional schools to vouchers for the citizens in the Rainier valley (or Ritzville) that cannot afford rent on Queen Anne? Would it work, or would it be the death knell to public education? What about the advanced technology that drives roughly 60% of the economic growth in our country? In real dollars we invest half the fedaral tax dollars in physical sciences research that we did in the mid 1960's. What will this change in collective investment mean for our economic future?
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I fear we have lost our appreciation of public good and collective achievement, but I also suspect some of my fear comes from a lack of appreciation for different by viable collective ideals. SSI is one of the rare places where I have come to expect thoughtful discourse from diverse perspectives. I post my rambles with the thought someone might be inspired to give me reasons for optimism. For those that have come this far, thank you for your patience.

9

Jeff, I have been reading this site regularly for 2 years and participating for 1 year. It is my favorite sports web site and I would gladly pay for its content, presented in such a witty, informative style. Thank you for hosting such a wonderful site. One reason I like your site so much is that is that it is removed from controversial areas of modern life like politics, international relations, religion, and economics. Virtually everyone who comes to this site is a Seattle sports fan who wants the local teams to do well, and the commonality of this interest means the only disagreements are on how to achieve this goal. This type of difference makes for lively, entertaining discussions that are not visceral in nature.
Not so, IMO, for politics, international relations, religion, economics etc. Disagreements abound, at fundamental emotional levels. There are plenty of well written blogs in each of these areas, when I want to delve into these matters. For me, I don't come here looking for discussion of these inherently controversial matters, and, in fact, find the introduction of them here to lessen my enjoyment of this site.
I understand that this is your site, and you obviously can discuss any topic that you wish. But I find you very open-minded, so I am passing along my $.02 on site content for your information. To summarize, my preference is sports, not politics/economics/religion etc. Thank you for listening - PhxTerry.

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GLS's picture

Well, payroll taxes aren't especially progressive and they are federal and everyone that works pays them, but they stop at $113,000 of income. So income above that amount isn't subject to those taxes at all.
Sales taxes, which people in the state of Washington seem to think are just dandy, are absolutely regressive.
While I don't advocate confiscatory rates of taxation on high income earners, I do think that there is broad consensus on the basic ideal of a progressive escalation in the tax rate. From that I would point out that 1) payroll taxes and local sales taxes are almost always left out of that argument and 2) tax rates in the highest brackets are at or near historical low points.

11

While I am in general agreement with Terry... I just want to complement those posters above for their civility and plain English approach - which several other sites do not always have.
But I am here for the sports...

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Ryno the Dyno's picture

The few times I have tried to post in the past, my post has been eaten/deleted, so hopefully it works this time.
I have been reading Jeff's work for some years now (maybe 8 or so?) and while I enjoy the strictly baseball content of SSI, what I really come to read is the non-baseball material that extracts a principle we can apply to some specific Mariners scenario or dilemma. I love the chess analogies, and the Fortune 500 perspective. The religious and economic viewpoints also add a great deal of value to the site, in my opinion. Obviously if these topics degenerated into flame wars on a regular basis, I would not feel the same way, but seeing as they do not, I believe they add value. Over the years I have come away from reading Jeff's work with lots of the little axioms that are contained therein, and I rarely ever apply them to baseball.
What I really come here to experience, more than the great analysis of the Mariners by so many of the posters, is Jeff's writing style combined with his world view. For me, this is seen especially in the topics that may only be tangentially related to baseball.
This website is generally the first page I pull up on my computer in the morning, often before I even check my email. Thanks so much for all of it, Jeff! And thank you to the entire community of posters who make for such stimulating reading and civil discussion.

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GLS's picture

Anything the government spends money on is essentially redistributive. If you're going to use that term as a pejorative, you ought to include other forms of redistribution besides Obamacare.
Some ideas for you:
1) Social Security
2) Defense Spending
3) Transportation Spending
4) Environmental Protection/Regulation
5) Housing
6) Law Enforcement
All of these are "redistributive schemes". When you take money from your taxpayers and then allocate that money towards whatever public good is deemed necessary or fashionable, by definition that is redistributive.

14

The primary INTENT, when spending on highways or public transportation or police cars, is to make the country a better place for everybody -- irrespective of income.  Everybody's down with THAT, bro'.  ;- )
SOMETIMES, at least, the primary intent is not the goods and services purchased, but to rob from the rich to give to the poor.  
Is Obamacare in that category?  I don't know.  To the extent that it is, I resist it, and to the extent that it is centralization of federal power, I also resist it.
I remember an Obama interview - don't have the link - in which he was asked, "Should the rich pay a higher tax PERCENTAGE even if this would lead to lower tax income for the treasury."  He replied, Yes, in the interest of Fairness.
Everybody, 99.9% of Americans, are fine with the rich paying more taxes --- > when the intent is to make the world a better place for everybody.  The rich don't begrudge the poor, the fact that the rich pay for bus systems used by the poor.
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When I use the term Redistribution -- which I didn't -- I speak in terms of a government program in which (1) the primary INTENT is to confiscate money from the rich, in a context which does not involve NECESSARY food, clothing and shelter by the standards of 3rd world countries.
It is true that taxes for public buses, and a 60% tax on the rich, have some things in common.  But there are also differences between those two things, and those things are decisive for many Americans.
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To the extent that Obamacare had the same motivation and final destination as Social Security, food stamps, and police funding, I would support it.  To the extent that it had the intent of centralizing government control, and/or confiscating money to give it to those who didn't need it for basic survival and well-being, I would not support it.
Obamacare's defenders --- > pitch it as being the former.  I don't believe them; I think that the left wing of the Democratic Party is interested in consolidating federal power.  I think that they would push Obamacare even if they believed that it were inefficient compared to the current system, "in the interests of fairness."  But I could be wrong.

15

I agree that it would be better to have an income tax; it would help the poor.  I would support it.  Most well-to-do people would, in principle, but in WA State an income tax would be added to a sales tax.  It wouldn't be a way to be progressive; it would be a way to raise taxes.
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"Low" is relative.  I just sent in a tax return that reflected some $17,000 in federal taxes alone, and I'm not at all rich.  Suppose that Americans had to write a check to the U.S. Treasury, every month, for $1,000 to $1,500?  Would they still be celebrating that their taxes were so "historically low"?

16

The state of discourse is a threat to our democracy.  At BJOL, James frequently mentions the fact that he sees a civil war coming.  My prayer is that we will learn how to talk to one another without sneering and wishing one another harm.
Two causes for optimism:  (1) Nobody has seriously tried to impeach Obama.  I was beginning to think that there would never be another President, over whom the opposing party did not make a serious attempt at impeachment.
(2) The big controversy over Phil Robertson's remarks ... GLAAD once again attempted to ruin a man's career for saying something it did not like.  This time, people on both sides of the debate said "Slow down a minute.  He is just giving his own opinion."  
I saw several important *gay* opinion writers (gently) questioning whether GLAAD is now obsolete.  The general tone, with about 60% of the gay op-ed's I saw was, "This is saying more about our bigotry than his."
Camille Paglia, an atheistic feminist, has been waging the war (almost alone) that "men must be allowed to speak, and in their own voice, not one coerced by feminists" who hate them.  She's making a lot of progress.  And if feminists and gays lighten up, the entire country will lighten up, in my considered opinion.
..
I now *wonder* whether we are making progress towards having debates, rather than censorship and oppression.  And I'm quite a skeptic on that count...
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I think that the general K-12 system has been co-opted by those with political agendas.  Part of that agenda is to "protect children's feelings" even at the cost of helping bright students to excel.  At this point, I think many K-12 schools are worse than useless; kids would be better off with no formal education at all.
But there are choices.  My own children went (most of the time) to an "assisted home school" facility, and it didn't cost them anything.  They were taught by talented schoolteachers of excellent character.
More and more, the NEA is losing ground to the concept of charter schools, vouchers, etc.  To the extent that occurs, all hope is not lost...
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Pardon my rambling reply Dr. K :- )

17

It's not a rhetorical question; it is intended with respect.
These posts are tagged "social-political commentary."  Why click on those posts?
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For what it's worth, Bill James mixes political/cultural ideas constantly, with no way to avoid it.  It has made his site more vibrant, since American baseball takes place in America.  However, at SSI, you can very easily avoid this commentary if so desired.  Why not simply do so?

18

1.  We get a fair amount of reaction, that --- > SSI has a unique "voice."  There are a lot of pure baseball blogs; at a minimum, at least we're not one more of the same ol', same ol'.  At least we hope not.
2.  We are aware, too, that some readers are agitated by controversial content.  We try to be very sensitive to that.  
For instance, any time we do a social-political post, we try to also have a pure baseball post that day, so that "anti-political" readers won't have a "letdown" when they click over.  Heh.
3.  In our effort to blend both points of view, we're very open to suggestions as to how we can do better.  :- )
Thanks for saying bro!,
Jeff

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GLS's picture

Well, taxes are low in general in the US and they have been for some time. This is historically true compared to previous eras in our own history and currently true when compared to the rest of the first world.
I think, obviously, having every American write a check each month would be a nightmare administratively. But, your point is well taken that if people saw how much they were paying and had to take an affirmative step to pay it, that they would be much more critical. It's an awful lot of money.

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GLS's picture

Actually, I wasn't saying that you used the term "redistributive". That was Matt. [KLAT vNext needs to improve comment threading]
I have a problem with the term because as far as I can tell it's been hijacked by Republicans as a synonym for socialism; they can't call Democrats socialists directly because that makes them look too extreme, so they throw out "redistribution" instead, which doesn't have the same semantic load. If they're called on it, they can plausibly claim that they're only criticizing the policy proposal, whereas calling someone a socialist is basically placing a label on them. It's also harder to argue with because, as I said before, all government spending is essentially redistributive. That's what it is. People pay taxes and the government makes policy that determines how it gets spread around. That's called redistribution. When Republicans use that term though, what they really mean is that the program smells like socialism (i.e. they don't like how the money is being spent).
Interestingly enough, most Senators and members of Congress (of both parties) are happy enough when government contracts create jobs in their districts. The F-35 program creates something like 130K jobs in 45 states. Now, something as patriotic and crucial to our defense as the Joint Strike Fighter could never be socialist. I wouldn't dream of saying something like that. But, it is interesting that the manufacturing supply chain stretches over so many states and congressional districts. I'm sure that's just a coincidence though. Obviously, you would never call something like redistribution.

22

I really get annoyed by the name calling and innuendos of almost every other site - and virtually every politically based show on TV, so it is just nice to be able to read / get educated here... thanks to my public education.

23

...that is redistributive is Social Security.
Even the furthest-right in America believe Government services are necessary and the collection of taxes to fund them is required. What makes something redistributive is the goal of the program - that being the movement of wealth from one group of people to another group with the goal of making the groups more even.
The Affordable Care Act is not simply the provision of a government service in exchange for some contributions by all to the government to afford the provision...it's a law requiring young, healthy, and/or middle class and up persons to buy more expensive health care so that, with subsidies, the sicker and poorer folks who need insurance can pay less to do so. It's a movement of wealth from the middle class (primarily - since the rich will continue to buy their own private plans even if prices rise) to the poor. And from the healthy to the sick. And from the young to the older under the intent to make health care more "even".
I made no claims in my initial post that I am a political expert or health care policy expert. But you will find plenty of commentary on the unfeasible nature of the ACA long term and the negative impact it will have or has had on the insurance market with a deep enough search.

24

Taes are LOW in the US?
We have the highest industrial/corporate taxes in the developed and free world. So...please explain?

25
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26

Interesting bump.  Personally I enjoyed re-reading these comments.
Following on this thread ... at BJOL, in the Hey Bill area, right now there are some great reads as to self-righteousness in American politics ...

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