Roster Decisions

Geoffy bats for a 320/400/600 slash line on his analysis of the M's roster decisions impending.  

He covers not only the Strat-O-Matic logic, the WAR-vs-WAR type thinking that you'd see covered anywhere else ... but also extends his reporting to capture the things that an actual shot-caller, such as Jack Zduriencik, will be thinking about:

  • Strat-O-Matic indicators based on pure performance
  • Political realities (you couldn't admit a Cust mistake* in April in the conference room)
  • Clubhouse realities
  • "Mission statement":  losing 88 vs 105 and the attendance issue

Gutierrez and Aardsma are coming back, and every move you make has serious drawbacks.  How would SSI deal?

.

=== 6-Man Bullpen ===

This ballclub does have the best #1 starter in the American League, might have the best #2 starter (Pineda), probably does have the best #3 starter (Bedard, who if healthy could easily lead the league in FIP), has one of the better #4 starter/run prevention mechanism in the AL in Jason "Safeco" Vargas, and has a #5 starter running a 150 ERA+.

If this ballclub can't go with six relievers, no club can.

We didn't say two relievers.  We said six.  Six relievers are a lot, especially when Tom Wilhelmsen and Jamey Wright can throw 100 innings each.

........

So:  When Guti returned, my preferred solution would be to cut Aaron Laffey.  

.

=== Aardsma for Ray ==

They're the same type of pitcher -- wild fastballs in Safeco.  They're the same role (Ray has been pitching the 8th).  It's a seamless swap.

It was an interesting experiment, the idea that Chris Ray's wild fastball might achieve the same effect that Aardsma's did.  

It hasn't:

  • 2011 K rate -- Ray has 0 strikeouts total, in 5 different games
  • 2011 O-swings -- Only 21% swings on "balls," compared to 25-27% usual for him
  • 2011 Z-swings -- Fully 78% launches by batters on strikes, compared to 68% normal
  • 2011 SW% - A piddling 5.2% swings and misses
  • 2011 SF% - Ray is throwing tons of split-fingers in his desperation to get a few swings and misses

SSI doesn't care about one painful inning.  It does care that Ray isn't fooling anybody, and that Ray was an SSI Best Bust before he ever got here.

.

=== Gutierrez for Laffey ===

Laffey being another SSI Best Bust before the season began .... Laffey's ERA, K, and BB are fine.  His pitch-by-pitch breakdown tells a different story:

  • O-Swing % - Only 17% swings and fishes (27% being normal in the big leagues)
  • Z-Swing % - 77% (66% being normal in the bigs)
  • Contact % - 96% (!!!)
  • Swing&Miss% - 1.5% (grrooaaaaan)
  • Fastball velocity - 86 mph

Don't let Laffey's first couple of lucky games fool you.  He can no more pitch now than he ever could, and in the long-term, you've got Luke French who does exactly the same thing but much better.

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=== Alternatives ===

If the M's want to keep Laffey, that's fine by me -- he's a long man who won't do the M's much harm.  If they want to keep Ray, that's not at all fine by me.  He is being put into situations in which his pitching determines a 5-7 vs 4-8 record in the morning.

But the M's have three RP's throwing good:  League, Wright, and Wilhelmsen.  They can powerflush anybody else.

.

JOSH LUEKE is a perfectly reasonable send to AAA.  You can take it from there.  Lueke just isn't throwing his best.  That's what AAA is for, on guys like this.

.

TOM WILHELMSEN would also be fine to send out, especially if it's to the rotation in Cheney.  The man is a born 225-IP rotation horse.  Another day on that one, Sir Paul.

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DAVID PAULEY, if he has options left (?), would not be a critical part of a post-Aardsma bullpen, in view of Jamey Wright's scorched-earth policy.  Aardsma and League have the 8th and 9th, obviously, and Wright/Wilhelmsen can get the critical outs in support.

It sounds funny, but League, Aardsma, and Jamey Wright could set up a clear 1-2-3 in the mold of Sasaki, Rhodes and Nelson.  They're not that good, of course, but the roles could be set just as decisively.

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Zduriencik actually has five (5) good options to shed bullpen deadweight ... two of them negative (banish this guy before he kills again) and three of them positive (let's get this guy going in Cheney).  

And none of the five are key to his ballclub's ability to hold on to leads; that is League, Aardsma, and Wright's job.

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=== 7-Man Bullpens ===

Clearly, Gutierrez comes back for either Saunders or Langerhans.

.........

SSI WOULD SHED LANGERHANS, because (1) it doesn't believe in him as a part of your next winning ballclub, and because (2) right now, Saunders is exactly the same thing as Langerhans. 

Langerhans had a 2:24 EYE in spring, if I recall correctly, and in the regular season he is on pace for 250 strikeouts (!) over 550 AB's.

But it might be a bit of a tough political sell:  Langerhans has three homers, and they're big homers.  "Look what Ryan did for them, and look how they treat him."  

Langerhans is actually leading the ballclub in WAR, at a whopping 0.3, and if you want to ride Langerhans, it's no big deal to send Saunders down for a little bit.

.........

If it were Strat-O-Matic, I actually might shed Cust and make Saunders the nominal DH.  This is because of Saunders' apparent progress, and because of getting a good long look at Cust in Safeco.  Russell Branyan, he ain't.

Saunders at DH, the fungible Langerhans as #4/#5 outfielder, and you're positioned to move young players in when appropriate... it would set up future moves verrrrrrrry nicely.

.

BABVA,

Dr D


Comments

1

on sending Wilhelmsen to the minors to stretch him out.
Eliminates the "politically" difficult call of axing Ray or Laffey.  Ray will lose the 8th inning gig when Aardsma comes back anyway (by default -- it should be a "demotion" but doesn't have to "play that way" internally).
TW can polish up his game and come back as a starter.  He's shown he's got three pitches, can miss bats, and go deep into games.  And it was the original plan.  Only reason he got thrown into the big league pen was Aardsma's injuiry.  He had been slated for AA rotation when spring began.
Ray and/or Laffey can go later when one of the cast of 1000s from Tacoma's pen -- Justin Miller, Delcarmen, Cortes, Scott Patterson (actually at Jackson) -- gets on a roll.

3

Saunders is *NOT* exactly what Langerhans is.  Saunders WANTS to be what Langerhans is - but better.
The primary reason to keep Cust and Langerhans around is so Saunders can have a couple of examples of LH sluggers to watch and learn from - (both good and bad things).
Langerhans hits LHP exceptionally well.  So, let Saunders watch, study and learn how to hit lefties from a lefty who can hit lefties.
Cust is dreadful against LHP - so use him as the negative template for what NOT to do against LHP. 
The reason to keep either or both around is because it can *HELP* in the development of the guy you want to become your long term guy.
Or, of course, you can simply bring up your prospect, let him try to figure everything out himself, then trade him to the NL (or KC) after he fails.
What puzzles me is why nobody has considered the possibilty that one of the reasons that all of the Mariner prospects fail so miserably is because the only decent hitter the club has had in ages has been Ichiro.  IMHO, if you are expecting your prospects to learn based on watching Ichiro - (the penultimate MLB hitting singularity) - then you should expect to happen ... well, exactly what has happened for the last 6 years.
Lopez - learned from Ichiro
Yuni - learned from Ichiro
Wlad, Clement, etc., etc., etc ... if they were looking at an actual in-game example of success ... pretty much Ichiro.
 

4

At this moment in time, Saunders and Langerhans are:
#4 OF's who can play CF
Left hand hitters
Guys who will hit much below .300...
But who can pop one for you
Guys who run well, but not sub-for-a-SB speed
You got four bench slots, into which you can place about 12-15 varieties of garage tools, and Saunders/Langerhans offer the same tool.  Exactly.
At this particular moment in Saunders' trajectory.
...........
We weren't talking about 5-year ROI, Sandy.  We were talking about this week's roster decision, and how it affects the April W/L record.
.

5

Am not at all averse to the idea of bench coaches, but would be more amenable to the idea if --- > Griffey's and Sweeney's presences had yielded more fruit ;- )
The suggestion that Ryan Langerhans would provide a compelling model of the right way to do things... hm.  He certainly provides a compelling model of a tremendous baseball swing.  What kind of idea he takes to the plate might be another question...
I like Ryan Langerhans.  And it sounds like he's going to pass this Mario Checkpoint with plenty of time on his clock.  Gutierrez is coming back as a part-time player.
:fistbump:

6

Exactly.  Saunders is Langerhans...except better and with a career ahead of him, potentially. Langerhans is a nice guy.  But he's gone from the M's next year.  He should be gone now.  Heck....Give one of the Tacoma guys those AB's until Guti can  play.  Langerhans is probably hotter than he has ever been in his career....power-wise. This shall pass soon. 
Sell high.
moe

7

The reality I'm trying to get across with Saunders is he is not - never will be - has not even the tiniest potential to be - much more than a solid good MLB hitter.  He's not an uber talent like Griffey or Ichiro or even Sweeney (before the injuries).
Historically, superstars are horrible TEACHERS.  Why?  Because they had athletic gifts beyond mortal men, so "most" (and there ARE exceptions - Ted Williams, for example), aren't very good at helping young guys, because they don't have the skills to do so - (the skill of teaching is NOT the same as the skill of doing).
Am I going to learn more about how to play basketball listening to Bobby Knight or Michael Jordan? 
Yes, Langerhans and Saunders are incredibly close in a multitude of measures.  Let me accept that they are, in fact, identical (for the sake of this argument).  Exactly why should anyone therefore expect Saunders to ever, at any point in his career, to be any more productive than Langerhans was or is?
Langerhans got a little taste at age 23 (15 PAs), but came up and played part time at 25 ... and produced a .774 OPS in his first partial season and a .727 in his second.  Saunders got a shot earlier (23), but managed a .662. 
What prevents Saunders from peaking as a .670 #4 OF?  Because Langerhans minor league numbers are (similar), but slightly superior to Saunders.  Saunders has more inate HR power, but sacrifices average and a lot of Ks to get there. 
I've said it before and I'll say it again ... young players do not improve simply by getting older.  Simply getting more PAs does *NOT* magically result in improvement.  To improve, you have to change SOMETHING.  You have to stop doing something bad - or start doing something better. 
Yes ... for superstar players, they can come up, step into the lineup, and learn while being productive.  Chipper, Heyward, McCann ... I've seen them.  But, the next tier down ... the Saunders and Langerhans class players ... they have struggles ... so, you HAVE to leverage what skills they bring the best you can, while attempting to cultivate traits they don't have out of the gate. 
Saunders fans too much and has problems with lefties.  The options are -- do what Seattle has done for the last 6 years -- give him a full time job and let him try to figure out how to hit lefties, which he has been unable to do for his entire pro career.  Or, you can decide from day one that he'll never hit lefties - classify him as a platoon hitter - (the Branyan label) - and make him a 75% player, while you search for a righty that can hit in Safeco.  OR, you can work with him, give him exposure to lefty pitchers, but in carefully measured doses -- and try and give him examples of HOW to improve.
Langerhans arrived basically in tandem with guys like Adam LaRoche, Jeff Francoeur, Matt Diaz.  Some blossomed, some failed.  But, *ALL* got to work on their games as the Braves tried to get the most out of them.  Out of that crop, the one with the biggest hype?  Scott Thorman ... who was a 1st rounder that was supposed to become the Braves 1B for the next 15 years. 
You can do everything right and still fail.
But, if you just believe that players will magically improve without trying to improve ... well, you will get the results the Ms got with Yuni and Lopez.
My foundation principle remains unchanged -- when developing prospects, you concentrate on what is best for the PROSPECT, unless forced to do otherwise.  I believe Saunders is likely benefitting from having Langerhans around.  That certainly won't always be the case.  And when it is no longer true, by all means, dump Ryan. 
But, I watched a LOT of Braves prospects come up -- share time -- get better (or flop).  I felt great about the successes and sighed about the failures.  But, in each and every case, the Braves' attempted to *HELP* the prospects reach their highest potential.  There was never this attitude that (from my perspective) pervades the Ms fan base -- that simply by handing more ABs to a young kid, he'll just suddenly improve.
 

8
glmuskie's picture

If you think anyone on the Mariners learned how to hit a baseball from Ichiro then I think you are mis-reading the dynamic in Seattle by a wide margin.

9
glmuskie's picture

If you think anyone on the Mariners learned how to hit a baseball from Ichiro then I think you are mis-reading the dynamic in Seattle by a wide margin.

10
ghost's picture

I think Sandy was saying that the only person they had who was any good to learn from was Ichiro (thereby implying that they didn't learn from anyone)...but I could be wrong.

11

The one thing you DON'T want in a veteran example is a unicorn - that mythical creature that should not exist.
I wouldn't want my players learning plate discipline and what to do at the plate from Ichiro any more than I'd want them learning strike zone control from Vlad Guerrero.
Their approach only works for THEM.  When imitated by the Joses and Yunis of the world it bombs.
That's what Sandy's saying - I think.  I've misinterpreted him before. ;)
~G

12

Now if you're saying that nobody in Seattle would learn from Ichiro because he's been mostly aloof and in some years a pariah in the clubhouse (*cough*Silva*cough*) then I'd agree with you, he's apparently not sitting down and talking hitting with the kids like Lou Piniella did.
That doesn't mean that the kids weren't looking to Ichiro for some form of leadership, and if he wasn't giving it off the field then maybe he helped promote our avoid-walks-at-all-costs approach on the field, even if just subconsciously.
~G

13
glmuskie's picture

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I just think the notion that Ichiro has a really significant influence on M's batters' player development is misguided.  Show me how Lopez or Yuni modified their approach from the minor leagues to their MLB Ichiro tutelege and I'll reconsider my position.  : )
Sure Ichiro is not the Edgar-type model of batting that you want your young kids to learn from or aspire to.  But Edgar didn't turn Ibanez in to Rauuuuul...  that was I-forget-who in Kansas City.
Sure young players are going to look up to and potentially mimc their idols.  I don't think Betancourt or Lopez would put Ichiro in the 'idol' category.  More likely they'd admire Vlad or someone from another team, try to mimic them.

14

No ... nobody learned from Ichiro.  Nobody COULD.
And the specs didn't have any other role models available to learn from.
Which is why they all failed.
My point is - when the 2003 stars were flushed, the club was left with Ichiro as "THE" default team leader.  The organization then went to great pains to draft and promote every low-K, low-walk, free swinger they could get their hands on -- (guys with an Ichiro-esque template). 
Of COURSE they couldn't learn from Ichiro.  His game is unique and his approaches (all 900 of them), rely on his unique skill set and wouldn't translate to anyone else, even if he were available to teach them.  THAT's my point.  Seattle prospects have failed one after the other after the other BECAUSE (in part), the organization had ***NOBODY*** around with experience to let them "see" success.
Yes, there are coaches - who could hit 20 years ago - who can TELL them what to do.  But, Langerhans can *SHOW* what is like to say back on a pitch by a LHP and hit is well.  His career OPS is 3 points higher vs. lefties.  His career slugging is 23 points higher against lefties.
You keep Langerhans around, because it will help Saunders get better FASTER.
==============
You go get a new job - grocery store clerk - programmer - doesn't matter.  You bring skills, but you still have to be trained at the new company.  If they hand you a book and say learn it, you may eventually get there.  If they have someone there "tell" you how to do the parts of the job you are unfamiliar with - that's a little better.  But, if the experienced guy can SHOW you how to do it, you'll likely pick it up much, much quicker.
I have no doubt that Smoak would likely benefit a ton if he were on a team like the Braves, where he could not only talk about the difficulties of switch hitting - but also draw on the years of actual experience.  Langerhans has gone through a lot of different orgs.  He can tell Saunders stories about how "The Braves told me X - and the Nats told me Y - and when I first tried this, it took me awhile to get used to yadda, yadda, yadda."
MOST lefty hitters struggle against lefty pitching.  Langerhans doesn't.  What is the best, fastest, most effiicient way of trying to assist Saunders in learning how to hit lefties?  How about, have a similar template hitter who DOES hit lefties around? 
Maybe Saunders never hits lefties.  But, *NOW* is the time to try and see if you can get him there - rather than peg him as "will never hit lefties" - and watch him struggle to have a poor man's version of Branyan's career.

15
glmuskie's picture

I don't think anyone here is not getting your point.  And, I am likely (over)reacting to a supercilious tone from your previous post (i.e., 'it puzzles me why no one has considered...').
2004, Lopez comes up, and the roster has Edgar, Olerud, Boone, Ibanez...  If you think Ichiro was the leader of the club at that point, I'd argue that you are mistaken.  It's an additional stretch to say that it would be Ichiro that Lopez would pattern his game after, or look to for inspiration.
Agreed that the M's benefit from having veterans that younger players can learn from.  The M's agree also, IIRC it's the whole reason they brought in Miguel Cairo, to work with Lopez.
Langerhans & Saunders were both around last year.  I don't think Saunders has anything more to glean from Langerhans at this point.  Another mentor would suit him better now. 

16

I suppose my frustration is from reading too many posts - (not wanting to point fingers at anyone in particular) that from my perspective come down to ... just give a kid enough ABs and he'll get better.
The idea that Saunders needs a different mentor than Langerhans -- I'd be perfectly willing to listen to.  The knowledge that they were re-tooling Saunders' swing THIS spring, (IMO), calls into question how much good any time with Langerhans did last season.  But, I'm open to hear ANY ideas about the best way to help Saunders grow as a player EXCEPT the concept of simply giving him 500 ABs and hoping for the best.
 

17
Taro's picture

There was a study done on this. Over the past 15 years the Mariners have actually had the 3rd best turnout on propects turning into MLBers in relation to their national ranking (doesn't include Griffey or ARod).
The problem with the Ms was that they had very little minor league talent worth anything in the 2000s and the ones that did end up having value were traded (Choo, Guillen, Cabrera, etc).
In comparison, the Braves were middle of the pack. They haven't done an above-average job of developing prospects at the MLB level, they just had a ton of quality prospects to plug in. Even now, the Braves are absolutely loaded in young talent.
If there is something to learn from the Braves, its likely their ability to scout well and perhaps developing players at the minor league level.

18

When I was in Minnesota, I watched the Twins churn out prospect after prospect were solid pieces of the puzzle. It was very impressive to see a team get solid contributions from players like Bobby Keilty, Jason Bartlett, Lew Ford and Matt LeCroy (to name a few of the many). These players provided the Twins with the extra bit of umph the team needed to win pennents. Almost all of these players were after thoughts when acquired.
Do I think that some teams know WAAAAAY more than other major league teams? No. Do I think some teams get lucky for a decade in player development? No. Do I think some organizations develop systems that get the most out of the talent they acquire? Yes.
The Twins did it without big money or a slew of superstars (they had some but the players that got them over the top were Matt LeCroys of the world). 
The Mariners haven't been able able to do anything remotely like this. In the last decade here are the hitters who we have tried to bring up and make a regular...
2001: Scott Podsednik- Developed in another organization. Looked like a career 4th outfield. 
2002: Chris Snelling- Injuries ruined this kids career. What could have been...
Luis Ugueto- Rule 5 Kid never amounted to much of anything. Blame this on being rushed to the bigs.
Willie Bloomquist- Actually developed into a decent utility player in Seattle. Never was going to be a starter though...
2003- No one.
2004- Jose Lopez- Actually became an ok major league regular but he was highly touted for his minor league success. He is probably one of the Mariners success stories.
Jeremy Reed- Highly touted prospect who flopped.
Greg Dobbs- Made a decent career for himself after he left seattle as a PH. M's couldn't find a role for him here.
Bucky Jacobsen- Injuries.
Justin Leone- Injuries IIRC?
2005- 
Shin Soo Choo- M's gave up on him and shipped him out the first chance they got. Could really use his bat right now.
Yunieski Betancourt- Actually turned out ok for a while but his defense completely collapsed. Embarrassing to watch him at times.
Mike Morse- Did ok in the big leagues but was written off by the organization pretty early on. Always hit when he was in the show but never given an opportunity to earn a spot.
2006: Rene Rivera- poor kid was rushed and never should have been in the bigs from day one.
2007: Adam Jones- M's shipped him off before giving him a chance to prove himself. 
Jeff Clement- Flopped. 3rd overall pick in the draft. This one hurts.
Wlad Balentien- Flopped. Given opportunity to earn a spot with the club as a platoon partner. Actually handled quite well but Balentien just flopped.
Rob Johnson- Developed into a catcher who played poorly in the major leagues. Could have made a decent back up but once again, shipped out.
2008- Matt Tui- Hasn't been given a chance to earn a role with the team. Strikes out too much but could probably work his way into a starting job if things break right for him.
Bryan Lahair- Another guy who didn't do much with the opportunity.
2009- Michael Saunders- Needs to get MLB AB's but so far, he has shown more than uber prospect Jeremy Reed ever showed. He has enough strengths that if he can minimize his weaknesses he can stick.
Adam Moore- Another catcher, another flop. This time I blame injuries. Looking like he would never be a major league starting catcher before he got hurt.
Mike Carp- Not given much of a change. Again didn't find a role for his skillset.
2010- Justin Smoak- Highly touted and ready to be handed the 1B job. I think he'll not only hold it but excel.
That is plenty of players but the M's turned very few of them into pieces that you could win your next pennent with. Top prospects either flopped or became below average starters: this kills your organization.

19

Why haven't the M's had success with player development? I blame several things:
1) Insisting on having a "DH"
Blame Edgar for this one, but we treat the DH like an actual position here in Seattle and have brought players in to fill it. Carl Everett, Jose Vidro, Ken Griffey Jr, Mike Sweeney and now Jack Cust share a few things in common: All are near the end of their careers, none are fast and none of them can field a position. This creates a need for speedy pinch runner types, and with a 4 man bench, utility players like Willie Ballgame. How many developmental AB's has this arrangement stolen from young Mariners who could play in the field while the regular got the day off.
2) 12 man bullpens- I think this is one of the dumbest trends in baseball. This forces teams to find 3 guys to back up 7 positions. CF and SS take two of these positions and usually the guys who back up these positions are all glove no stick players. That leaves one spot, which usually goes to someone who can hit the ball out of the park in a PH situation. No room in this configuration for a young kid who might struggle for a while.
3) A "we play our starters every day" mentality- This was my beef with Grover. How in the world is a kid supposed to make it if he needs to crack the top 9 in order to get AB's. They play too early or the rot on the bench. Horrible. The need to make better use of job shares.
4) Blocking young talent with veteran acquistions- Think Jose Vidro pugging up the DH spot for two years when you had a bunch of young hitters trying to break into the bigs. Think acquiring Jose Guillen when Adam Jones and Chris Snelling are waiting to get an opportunity in the minors. Kids need to be able to win a spot on the big league roster as something other than utility player.
5) Not making strategic decisions with the vets they do pick up. Finding players who are clearly short term fixes with the understanding they will be mentoring a younger player along the way is a must. I hope the M's are doing this with Dustin Ackley and Adam Kennedy. Hopefully Branyan did that for Smoak. Same with Bradley and Saunders.
For what it's worth, I like what I see from Wedge. He's getting creative with the lineup but he doesn't have much talent to work with. We need to shed one of the pitchers and get this guy another bat to work with. I'm thinking Matt Tui sounds about right. Adds some hitting against LHP and he can play a little LF while Bradley spells Cust.
 

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