HQ POTD: Nate Karns, SP
Dr. D's good cheer knows no holiday bounds ...

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THE Q GOING INTO 2016 IS:

SABRMatt marvels at the way DiPoto's offseason cake wound up decorated.  He sums up his own feeling about it:

I would say that JeDi (yep...I went there) was paying a premium from time to time in trade for the privilege of NOT paying an even bigger premium in the open market for the same returns so that he could fill the holes.

Kicking the soccer ball downfield a few yards from there ... another DiPoto grand theme is, "BUY LOW."  Nate Karns, 12 months from now, might easily rate as an SP you'd give a 4/$75M deal to -- but he'll cost 4/$nothing.  DiPoto wanted Miller off the island in ANY case, since Marte's the shortstop and since "usable" outfield defense is non-negotiable.  DiPoto evidently held a bidding war and Nate Karns was the top offer.  

Dr. Detecto gets axed, "Why don't you write more in terms of what you would do?"  One thing Dr. D would do, is get 230-lb. Texas rookie SP's with huge curve balls and 145 strikeouts in 147 innings.

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HQ SEZ:

GOOD - Reasons for optimism:  1) CMD (k:bb) uptick in second half, coupled with big first-pitch strike and swing-miss growth ... 2) DOM/DIS reflects high-floor profile.  If these gains stick, his rising ceiling will make him a target for ... UP:  3.25 ERA, 200K

BAD -  [DNP, coach's decision]

SLASH LINE -  8.4 strikeouts, 3.5 walks (Gio Gonzalez on a roll, or Garrett Richards if you amputated a good K or so)

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Q-O-Vision Translation:

The "big first pitch strike" growth was from 49% two years ago to 56% in the first half to 60% in the second half last year.  That's the leading indicator for walks.  As y'know, Jamesian sabermetrics are about 3-year trends.

The "swing-and-miss" growth was from 9% in the first half to 12% in the second half.  Twelve percent is David Price, Zack Greinke, Madison Bumgarner.  Is Karns equal to those pitchers?  Don't ask dumb questions, Pokey.  The idea is to try to get Greinke before he's Greinke.  You have a better chance of doing that if the incoming has 9K per game than if he has 6.

But!  Dumb Question 1:  review the below videos a time or three, mostly for enjoyment, and then also to tell me why Nathan Karns won't sustain a 12% swing-miss rate.

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By "Dominant" vs "Disaster" ratio, HQ is asking "how good is a pitcher when he takes his Grade B stuff out there."  Taijuan, for example, has a scary DIS ratio; Karns had only 15% "disaster" starts.  Hence the "high floor" characterization by Shandler.

(If you want some idea of just how annoyed a stats guy can get at his old team after he is dismissed, check out this Fangraphs article.  Yessiree bob, this is the kind of pitcher who is good for twice -- not three -- times around a lineup.  Ergo the kind of SP you want to pick up in a minor trade.  Dr. D will buy that fer a doller.)

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MUSTA BEEN DISCOUNTED BY THE FOREARM STRAIN, Dept.

Well, sure, maybe the M's don't image their pitchers like the Dodgas do, I s'pose.  But what if they didn't.  Felix had a forearm strain once.  Some 'a these kids snap the ball off hard.  It ain't like the other 5 M's starters have 200 innings in the bank.  It also ain't like Zack Grienke has 200 innings in the bank.

Nah, what happened here is, the guys in the know, they had Nate Karns as somebody worth havin'.  They also had Brad Miller SS as somebody worth havin'.  That's all.

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LET'S.  Go TO.  The VIDEO.  TAPE.

Selected for your edification:

A knee-high curve to a lefty, Hosmer.  Dives literally into the dirt for a garbage swing.

Here are 10 Yankee strikeouts, most of them off the curve but several off fastballs and changes.  Even lefties can't get a sniff of the yellow hammer.  You were wondering about 12% SwStr%?

The first 2-3 pitches on this vid are merely "good."  But as Karns gets rolling you can HEAR the curve break, and there's a wipeout changeup off the outside corner.  Notice how far the lefthanders miss by.

Dumb Question 2 Dept.  Who would you take, right now, hard on the barrelhead?  Garrett Richards, or Nate Karns?  Why or why not?

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DR'S PROGNOSIS

Offseasons come and offseasons go; Aoki, Lind, Clevenger, Loenydas & co. may create an impression like the "sum is greater than the parts."  But Nate Karns is not a "see to appreciate" used car ad.  He is the shining jewel of DiPoto's maneuvers, the dazzling young SP who would make any GM beam with pride.  

Prognosis, you say?  All James Paxton has to do to win the "competition" in March, is throw 20 shutout innings with 27 K's.  That's assuming he hasn't been dealt for Ozuna (which, with a Seth Smith flip, would bring the payroll back to originally-targeted territory.)

But it's all good.  Bill Bavasi and Dr. D speak in terms of 8 starting pitchers; DiPoto speaks in terms of 10.  Here's hoping that, come March 1, #6 is still the Kershaw wannabe.  In the meantime, the 1977-2016 M's have had approximately four rookie starting pitchers go into year two looking like Nate Karns looks right now.  Four decades, four Erik Hansons and [Kings are special cases] and Michael Pinedas and Nate Karnses.

Drive home safely,

Jeff

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Comments

1

That knee-high outside curve is a thing of beauty. And when hitters get wise to it and lay off the pitch, it turns out it's a knee high fastball. So good.

2
hanjag's picture

The starting rotation has some questions going into 2016.

No question:

Felix is the Ace.

Iwakuma based on performance and proven ability is the #2.

According to the Startin pitching rankings the Mariners have 1 Ace, 2 #2s, 2 #4s, and a #6. I viewed the other article ( SP rankings) as such: pitchers #1-30 are number 1's,#30-60 are#2s,#60 to 90 3s, 90-120 #4s, 120-150 #5s. Basically 30 MLB teams give you the direct translation into starting pitching tiers. I would like to reflect on Paxton #174, I do not know the % of starting pitching that in any given season might be on the DL but his 170s ranking may be a perfectly solid # 5 based on say a 20% injury expectation. Just a passing thought. 

Felix #12 (#1)

Kuma #35 (#2)

Miley #46 (#2)

Walker #100 (#4)

Karns #114 (#4)

Paxton #177 (#6?)

The typical rotation is a 5 man unit. The Mariners have 6 legit starters. They each have impressive enough resumes. Felix and Kuma are established. Miley-Walker-Karns-Paxton stack up for 3 positions: 

In brief:

Miley #46 <---(wow) must be leaning on the strength of his 200 odd innings per year the last 4. Last 2 he only has a 86 and 96 ERA+ 101ERA+ career. Miley has averaged 2 WAR per over thos 4 years. High floor low cieling.

Walker #100 Walker flashed the high cieling last year highlighted by the 1 hit,1 walk, 11k game against the Twins. Walker's prospect ranking #1 among SPs.

Karns, #114 rank based on a strong 107 ERA+ last year 26 starts. Traded Brad Miller for him. Looks like a big strong young (power curve) SP.

Paxton,#177, K-Pax, His epic start to his career shows that his cieling is as high as it gets. His floor ? elite BP arm. 118 ERA+ career, Injuries have limited him to 13 MLB starts the last 2 years.

 

Here is the problem. Paxton and Walker have cielings as #1 starters. Karns and Miley have upside but are sooo not TORs. Miley may be ranked #46 placing him as a #2 but I would see it as a white flag running him out to start a playoff series after clinching it with Felix. Miley was #2 in rookie of the year voting the same year he was an all star based on his 122 ERA+ that year(2012). It would not be comfortable trying to stash him in Tacoma after averaging 2 WAR/yr,Allstar, ROY#2,200 innings, etc, Finally good of the team I do not see him as adding a lot from the pen. Karns, Karn's is kinda in the same box as Walker and Paxton. He is young enough to option to Tacoma. 98 ERA+ career, Solid mechanics, comfortable.

The issue I have is that for the team performance the stuff of Walker or Paxton plays up way up as Maurer like dominant forces in the pen. I do feel uneasy placing either potential Ace starter in the BP. 

 

Strange approach suggestion: flex - job roles? Maybe we could see kinda a flex combo of 6 man rotation and swingman out of the pen. The young starters( Paxton, Walker, Karns) all could be good in the pen. Walker pitched 170 last year and would expect him capable of pitching 190 this year(almost not young arm limit) Karns pitched 147, Paxton 67(MLB) + rehabs, AFL but both will have innings limits in 2016. You could keep the innings count down by flexing starts out between the 3. While getting skipped a guy like Paxton could really contribute to team success by contributing some BP innings.

 

Just my 2 cents.

3

Amazing!  I hit the SP Rankings thread, noodled around with the same idea, and posted before reading your comment, so we've got a double post between the two of us.  First time that's happened in 20 years quite that way.

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As to the bullpen, maybe DiPoto is right that if you hand the ball to them late, all the RP's play up.  He claimed that's what happened in 2014.  It would be interesting to check his theory that the 2014 SP's tended to hand the ball to the key relievers later in the game.  Of course there are problems with analyzing that, such as "what is a key reliever," whether the 2015 M's suffered from cluster effects, etc.

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I'm right there with you too on flex roles.  A couple of months ago, we were chatting about this w/r/t Roenis Elias.

Conventional wisdom is going to be that Paxton needs reps in AAA.  Earl Weaver would not have agreed; he thought you learned major league pitching when you were in the major leagues.

Good stuff today Hanjag.  At least I hope so. .....

4

They are EXTREMELY high on Nuno as a reliever.  Seemingly everything we would want Furbush to be.  Elite control and first pitch strikes.  

And despite a platoon split, this doesn't speak badly of his potential as a fill-in starter, either.  This indicates that we are, indeed, seven deep.

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