Long Toss

Cool Papa:

Completely off topic, but what is your take on pitchers using long-toss (throwing the ball in an arc 200 to 300 feet) as a major part of their workout regime? Apparently it's very controversial, with a lot of people swearing by it while a bunch of major league teams ban it.

Trained my son that way.

From an aiki standpoint, the body naturally finds its path of least resistance with long toss.  In any sports movement, it's super important to find that which is light, easy, fluid, and joyful.  In baseball, that's long toss.

In aikido, students are trying to learn shiho nage and they're struggling... then you tell them, "step to 10 on a clock, then turn and step to 4 on the clock," and all of a sudden everything they do is light, easy, and decisive.

Doesn't long toss do this?

.......

Freak Lincecum used long toss ... was notorious for throwing 140 pitches at 97 mph, and then throwing long toss the next day.  Which shows you how safe long toss really is -- and yet it builds and develops the throwing muscles.

(By the way, this is one reason that Trevor Bauer is only a simulated Tim Lincecum.  Lincecum has the Ichiro weight/power ratio and the freakish arm.)

Don't know what NPB attitudes toward long toss are, but would confidently assume that they like it.

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Jim Bouton has a big section in Ball Four about getting traded to Houston, and Harry Walker preaching to him about how many burned-out arms he'd repaired with long toss...

.......

All my son John really ever did, at ages 9 and 10, was play lots of long toss.... at age 11 he stepped on to the rubber and was by far the best pitcher (and CF defender!, LOL) in the area ... threw a no-hitter, lowest ERA by far, crowd ooh'ing and aah'ing at his motion, literally laughing at how pretty three strikes looked, etc.

At 19, John can throw a ball farther than any Mariner but Ichiro :- )

We mention it not to glorify ourselves, but to give a feel for why so convinced on the benefits.

......

Fascinating that some orgs have banned it.  I would challenge them to identify the org pitchers who are (1) still improving, vs. (2) those who have optimized, and who are merely trying to protect their near-perfect motions.

We see here two arguments against long toss, both of which seem to reinforce the take above.  (The whole point of long toss is to use a smooth motion, not a max-effort motion.)

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=== Improving?  Or Protecting What You Got? ===

Long toss is about improving.

I would agree with topvelocity.net that a 33-year-old major leaguer is long past the point of trying to improve -- Jamey Wright has maxed out his arm strength and is now trying to protect a hair-fine release point.  

For that pitcher, the old virtuoso, long toss might foul him up.  Long toss is for building up, and grooving in, a throwing motion for --- > somebody who hasn't already achieved his optimum potential in throwing a baseball.

Celine Dion and Shania Twain prepare for singing by simply protecting what they have, like the guy on topvelocity.net.  Celine and Shania are just gargling and resting their voices....  

For the rest of us, though, an attempt to improve is our concern.

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There's nobody in college or the minors who has max'ed out.  Lincecum kept throwing long toss as a senior.

On a major league pitching staff, I'd guess that half are in "protect what you got" mode.  Maybe Felix is above long toss.  I doubt that Pineda is.  Certainly Erik Bedard would be a candidate for improving and healing his arm with long toss.

....... 

Any reason you ask?  And what's your take?

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Comments

1

Tango brought it up. That was the first time I had ever heard it discussed and I didn't realize it was a partisan issue. You can read the links (especially the last one in the comment #8) posted there. Apparently there is a lot of resistance to it, including at the pro level. In fact, many MLB teams restrict their pitchers to throwing only 120 feet and rigidly limit how much they do it. What's really dumb about this is that this structured, restrictive, one-size-fits-all approach was developed for guys recovering from Tommy John surgery, not healthy players, yet some teams applied it to ALL their pitchers.
The Mariner's aren't one of them; they employ a doctor who is big on long-toss. Other teams are open to it as well, like Texas. It would be interesting to know more about the M's current workout regimes for pitchers and what has been done previously.

2
RockiesJeff's picture

Doc, I always enjoy your sidenotes like this. Cool Papa, it is very controversial with different coaches. For example, two popular coaches today totally differ. Dick Mills says never. Paul Reddick endoress. I have my sons and pitchers long toss routinely but work to make sure that they don't get into habits. Pitching is throwing down while LT is up and out. Fun news about your son. One of my sons in a skills challenge a few years ago threw further than anyone in the state. But then again, Jose Mesa, when he played for Rockies could throw pole to pole but never over home plate. My theory is like yours Papa, each player is different from skill level to strength to flexibility. Therefore what works for one might need to vary for another.

3
RockiesJeff's picture

Jeff, I know some of the stories from little league with your son. Does he still play?

5

That is what Tango referenced. It's funny because he says that he's a smart pitcher but then demonstrates the same bullheadness that Dr. D has chided him for (doesn't watch any video, doesn't care who the batter is and insists on using his "best pitch" no matter what).

6

Then I get DJeff...
'preciate your holding down the other side of it RJeff. :- )  Personally don't weight the down-vs-up factor as much, since I really just lean back at the hip for long toss and then the rest stays constant... pitching you got the ol' hill...
But sincerely acknowledge that you might be right, the down-vs-up factor more important than people think.
...........
Middle ground:  we can all agree that tailor-made beats one-size-fits-all :- )
............
On the kids:  John preferred not to play Pony.  Would love to hear about your boys, though...
.

7

Zen-like interview:  he asks a simple but adroit question, leaving Felix intrigued.  Deceptively skilled interview.
And super relevant on the long toss.  That bit about throwing 300' the day after a start, the fact that Felix doesn't really like his pitch limits, and just the joy of throwing, it echoes Lincecum and reinforces the idea that Felix is going to throw 5,000 innings or something.
.

8

about Felix' talking "at" the batters instead of "with" them...thx for the vindication cpoints CPB...
Felix has become the best pitcher in baseball, so at this point I'm not going to quibble.  Would surmise that, over the course of five years, he has subconsciously assimilated intelligent pitch sequences -- especially not over-challenging and not throwing into the batters' strengths.
Some chess masters do that.  They execute sophisticated strategy, without having set out to learn it.
..........
It's funny - Felix chuckled at a homer Pineda gave up to a hitter with a comment like "anybody would have known not to throw that pitch to that guy."
Felix now yaks a lot about ignoring hitter charts, but I would infer that maybe without being 100% aware of it, he's pitching to those charts very skillfully.
.

9
IcebreakerX's picture

Long toss is done during long innings...!
Most Japanese pitchers are used to keeping warm by doing long toss and not bothering with a jacket. This was specifically banned in the WBC, much to the annoyance of the NPB.
Lincecum doesn't ice, ever, either. Lots of cognitive dissonance there.
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(and since we'll never beat that punch line, cpoints and sayonara.  LOL - Dr D)

10
RockiesJeff's picture

Okay Jeff, you pricked my curiosity so finally read an article on long toss I had been looking for by Alan Jaeger. Excellent. So I told my boys today I want to know more precise measurements of how far they are throwing and compare to the end of our Legion ball during the summer. So thanks for getting my old mind going!!
I will keep you up to date!

11

Hadn't thought of it that way, but now that you mention it.... think that's one thing I like about long toss, that increasing distance seems smoother on the arm than trying to increase velo?   You think?
Def!  Keep us posted :- )

12
RockiesJeff's picture

Good point. Try to throw hard usually creates jerky movements or such. Distance is smoother. And you don't get distance without fluid and quick body movements.
Will do if the weather ever gets nice again!

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