On Dae-Ho Lee's Pride
... but hey, Dr. D felt like a kid watching Lee play

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Now, you may be aware that it is part of Dr. D's (and Silentpadna's, and DaddyO's, and misterjonez', and I would guess Matt's) worldview that "Pride" is an UNhealthy thing.   

If you'd care for a Konspiracy Korner exploring the subject, we're game.  But I'm guessin' not.  :- )  Suffice it to say that respect for self, sense of duty, sense of honor, humility, and other virtues do anything Pride can do for you -- only, without the calories.  

(Alternatively, ask yourself how much you enjoy seeing the word TRUMP!!! on the side of airplanes and skyscrapers.  As with many things you observe about Trump, that's a 10-second path to enlightenment.  Or if even that doesn't get you, consider how annoying it is when people like Prince refer to themselves in the third person.  ... )

So this little snippet from MLB Trade Rumors made me, at first, kind of sad:

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“Playing time is an important factor to consider when choosing a team,” Lee said (via the aforementioned Korean Times link). “…Early on, it was fun to come off the bench to pinch hit, but it started to hurt my pride later. I wanted to play more, but it’s entirely up to the manager how he runs the team. I have no hard feelings for manager Servais. If anything, I should have played better and tried harder.”

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In other words, he was having fun and helping the team, but then his Pride hit him and ruined everything.  :: gavel :: Dr. D rests his case.

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But!  On reflection ... you could use different words to say the same thing and maybe relate to him in a more complex way.  Ken Griffey Jr., or on a lesser scale, Babe Ruth would probably find it "embarrassing" to be used as a substitute.  Dae-Ho Lee is accustomed to being the Maypole of his baseball teams in Asia.  Just think if Edgar Martinez were asked to be a subordinate coach or something.

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MOVING ON, Dept.

Couple of other things made Dr. D less sad.  One was the fact that --- > the Mariners definitely want Lee back and on the 25-man.  Kewl!  And it's not hard to imagine a scenario in which Lee gets no other MLB team to guarantee him a starting job.

The Mariners could, rather easily, tell Dae-Ho Lee that if Dan Vocal 'Bach does not rake in Spring Training, that he gets the whole 1B job to himself, at least for the interim, and that he's likely to get more of 'Bach's time at 1B than he got of Lind's.

The second thing is Dipoto's and Servais' verdict on Lee's second half mini-slump.  Some people wondered whether the league "booked" Lee.  SSI thought not, and now JeDi chimes in to the same effect.  Personally I've got all kinds of confidence in Lee as a hitter:  he takes two-strike pitches on a low line to RF ... he Back Legs mistake pitches into the bleachers ... he sees the ball early, when he's right.  Boomstick baby.  Lee is 85% of what Nelson Cruz is.

Despite his age, I'd almost be wondering whether a year in the AL -- and a year's worth of respect from umps -- might not have him improving on his quality 2016 numbers.

....

Perhaps JeDi can sweet-talk Lee off the NPB-ledge his Pride has him creeping out onto.  Perhaps Lee will return to Japan and 'Bach will hit good in March.  Perhaps we're up a creek without a paddle.  Or perhaps there is an "impact" trade available for 1B/DH.  Oh, wait, we did that.

Enjoy,

Dr D

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1

Bob's Big Boy hamburgers. Mmmm....


When I was in Junior High our church youth group, having collected donations for Christmas presents all year, would cram into a bus and deliver said presents to needy migrant workers housed at at an seasonal encampment in the Coachella Valley (Salton Sea area) in California. It was a large, fenced community dotted with small quonset huts that each housed a family, sometimes with as many as six or seven kids. We would pull into the camp by late morning and spend most of the day putting on programs and playing soccer and other games in the common area with the kids. Then, late in the afternoon, our group would divvy up the packages bound for each family, including some needed supplies, and "surprise" them in their huts. In many cases these were the only presents these families would receive, and the kids went ape over the toys we brought.


So why do I mention this in a thread about Dae Ho Lee?


Well on the way back to our Orange County home our bus full of Jr. Highers and High Schoolers would always pull up at a Bob's Big Boy restaurant in Indio to eat dinner. I would get their "World's Best" hamburger. (I know, looking back on things it's incongruous that we would eat at a restaurant on the way home while the workers ate their normal fare in their huts.) So when I saw Doc's chosen picture for the Dae Ho Lee article, the reminescence just sorta came out.


By the way, here's a picture of a different migrant camp that gives you some idea of what this one was like.
 

 

2

First weekend of college, some friends and I stole the Big Boy statue from out front of the Bozeman Big Boy. Broad daylight, right after the first home football game of the year. Threw him in the back of a shortbed, step-side chevy pickup - he was ridiculously sized for that - and drove right down W Main St with him. Left him in an intersection back in married-student housing, as we could hear the sirens closing in. The looks on the faces of the people that were eating in the restaurant when we backed up to the statue, grabbed him and tore off...

18 and brought up rural, away from home for the first time - my only defense. And no Big Boys were harmed in the doing. :)

4

Lee's pride was hurt, but he made some real high character remarks concerning he dealt with it:

He admitted he didn't produce when given the role as everyday player.

He admits his manager did the right thing because he didn't produce. And he admits he should have worked harder.

He doesn't hold any ill will toward the manager for doing his job.

He seems to suggest to me, reading this, that he would have done the same thing had he been manager.

This is the kind of pride, coupled with honesty and humility. That makes one a better contributor to an organization. His pride will propel him to work harder, rather than complain the world is rigged against him. 

Sign him!

5

I loved Dae Ho Lee, ESPECIALLY how he responded when after a torrid start things went south for him. Most of us, I'm sure, can only imagine the adjustment for someone to go from superstar in Korea to part-timer in MLB.

6

He does drive by the word "Pride" in a cultural kind of way, perhaps, but the whole handbasket of ideas is uncommonly charming.  Coming from Dae-Ho they make quite a different impression than if they had come from, say, Percy Harvin.  +1 Rick.

7
The Other Billy Zoom's picture

"Bubba" was never the same after the injury to his hand/wrist injury.

The physical part of him was not the same, but, pride kept him from admitting it.

We often hear about maximizing your contract year.

Bubba couldn't max, because of his "pride", and that "pride" morphed his present "mental hurt" to go with the physical hurt that lingered.

zoom

8

Would be interested in your projection for Lee as a 2017 Mariner?

9
The Other Billy Zoom's picture

Ain't many teams gonna come after him, regardless of scarcity at 1B.

I believe DePoet has a deal on the table for him, but it does not include 150 games ... another incentive laden one or two year shot.

From the little I know, his full "welcome" that he got from this group was worth not getting Kang or Park money because the respect he got from teammates and the community, and the many headlines that shipped back to Korea, were worth more than money ... that is another part of the pride thing.

His comments when he got back to his home country are not alarming, Same style as last year before he came over here to attend the winter meetings.

How bad is he huring, physically?  Or is all that over with?

If he doesn't get a face saving semblance of a deal frpm MLB, I think his swan song will be waving into the sunset from a year or two in Japan or Korea.

If M's go after Pearce Dae Ho is dead meat here (unless they trade Vogelsbach for you know who).

As for other suggestions on this thread M's went hard for Osuna last year and were laughed at by Miami.  As i recall, they were demanding Tie One On or Paxton.  With Fernandez gone, you would have to give up one of those guys, and I'm guessing the Bucs will hold out for him in a McCutch deal.

Fowler will stay in Cubland, as has been pointed out, he is now part of their "historic legend".  Heyward probably also bought his way into that club.

Desmond is simply going to cost too much.

I would not meet QO for Joey Bats or Encarnacion who will be on same Canadian ship.

Will not go for Soler, but am willing to give up too much for Baez or Almora.  Remember, Chicago will be resounding about new starter Margomery all winter.

Enjoyed reading lotsa ideas presented in this thread from others, can't bet any choice is wrong except Fowler who has priced his name into stone in Cubland.

DePoet will be rolling the dice soon, not waiting until winter meetings for a big deal.

zoom

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11

We clearly aren't "getting younger" (As DiPoto has espoused) or "more athletic" (ditto) if we resign Aoki, Lee and Smith.

Or even if we just resign two of the three.

I think we ink just one, or maybe two if Smith is an extend and then trade him guy.  I have no problem signing Lee but we aren't giving him 150 starts at 1B.  If we resign Lee we do so as insurance.  I would like to have him as such, but I'm betting he ends up back in Japan, of his own volition.

He came, he saw, he swatted. 

12

This is exactly my thought but the insurance can cover the eventual Cruz fade.  Carry him for another year or 2 so that you have the RH bopper when you need him most?  If he's producing along the way and helping cover another spot, it makes sense.  But it has the potential to push Cruz to the outfield more often where you can then less afford Aoki/Smith/Guti level defense in another spot.   I agree, only 1 of those 4 returning makes the most sense and can see a good case for Lee being that guy. 

13

I'm conflicted about resigning Dae Ho Lee. On the one hand we could certainly use a RH impact bat, which could be Lee after a year's experience. But I agree with you, moe, that if we resign all these older, slow, less-than-stellar derenders to keep our offense humming, what will have happened to our movement towards youth and athleticism? We will have boxed ourselves out of it just as Dennis Rodman used to box out would be rebounders.

15

While Dexter Fowler remains my favorite guy to get, two others are sneaking up my list.

There are hints that the Fish could swap out Marcel Ozuna for a young arm.  This I would consider.  He's a RH bat, with a glove, and a track record that isn't bad.  Career .845 vL and controlled for 3 more seasons.

Ian Desmond would be a great and flexible addition.  CF/SS/LF/2B.....you name it.  Has leather, will travel. 20+ homers and durability.  Career .787 vL.  4x$15M is going to be close, I think.  I like him for the flexibility he brings.  He and Martin and Gamel would be pretty sweet in the OF.  Move him to SS when needed.  Smith and Aoki likely pay for him.

Would you rather lose a Walker or Miranda for Ozuna or cough up the cash for one of the other guys?  Miranda and Heredia might get you Ozuna (maybe add a lesser arm).  Both those guys would fit into the Miami scene real well.

16

or Fowler, McCutchen, Bradley jr., maybe even discounted Heyward.  All of those should be on the radar and I may be forgetting someone.  I think Desmond can fit easier with another addition but figure Walker probably goes to get the other guy if it's 2 of those.  If it shores up the outfield defense and top of the order I'm Ok with trading Walker, I think.  It's hard to say for sure without knowing what SP help can be acquired in Dipoto fashion (trade, not the FAs who are obvious).

17

Desmond fell off by 269 points of OPS from first half to second half, but like you say he'd be a nice, solid, FLEXIBLE addition. He is 31, though. And he'll cost. 'Twill be interesting to see DiPoto's approach unfold.

18

But Desmond's .899 1st half was the best half-season of his career.  He was at .888 in the 1st half of '12 but settled back to his career norms.

Interestingly, Desmond's 2nd half of '16 (.630) was the 2nd worst of his career.  He was at .589 during the 1st half of '15.

In between his dismal 1st half of '15 and 2nd half of '16, he whacked .777 and .899.  I think we're dealing with normal career fluctuations;  Noise, in otherwords.

Ozuna's half-seasons, from '14-'16, look like .786, .751, .638, .789, .892, .609 (he crashed in the 2nd half last year, too).  If you could get that level of production from your LF, in exchange for Walker (or Miranda) for the next three years you might likely go "Whooopeeee!"

Interestingly, Fowler's last 6 half-seasons have basically shawdowed Ozuna's, excepting the 2nd half of '16:  .774, .773, .677, .852, .881, .795.

I thought Heyward's bat looked really slow in the Series: Was it just me?  His dismal year (his first) was driven by a .577 2nd half where his BABIP fell to .233!  It won't remain there.  But it did seem as if he was seeing the ball poorly and he was starting the bat early to make up for it.  I think the rain-delay weightroom meeting that he called last night becomes the stuff of Cub legend.  Makes it hard to trade him.  But I will bet you could get him and a decent chunk of his huge salary if you offered big.  I would prefer a RH bat, however.

19

Can anyone stil believe (pinch me!) that Ben Cherrington offered Jack Z JBjr for Charlie Furbush...

and was turned down?!

20

I think I'm good with Miranda and Heredia. I have to think long and hard about including Walker in any trade for less than a superstar (but, I'm inclined to hang onto my favorites for longer than the average "new GM".) 

21

Ian's desirability is directly linked to the QO issue. If he is given a QO, I'm out. If Texas passes (why would they, if he's predicted to get 4/$64M), then he's definitely a prime target.

If Ozuna could be had for Miranda and Heredia or Karns and one of the Cuban two, it's a go. But Miami will hold out to get Walker or Paxton from the Ms, I'm sure. They'll probably eventually get a young starter in Karns' class, but with more inspiring 2016 numbers. They're image-conscious down there on South Beach, I believe.

22

Stupid Question: If, after hiring Hazen and Sawdaye, the Diamondbacks hire Torey Lovullo as manager, should we start referring to them as the Arizona Argyles?

23

Would you rather have Lee or Steve Pearce backing up 1B and serving as Bach insurance? Pearce will cost more but he's got a better track record and some positional flexibility. 

24

Absolutely.  But in a year or 2 if Cruz is done and Lee is shredding I think we'd regret that decision.  No guarantees that either of those things take place but Cruz is also only signed for 2 more.  Do you think Lee can be productive for 3 or more years?  Can always take your chances at finding an available RH DH/1B when the time comes instead.

My plan would include Pearce but since they're apparently set on bringing Lee back I looked for some reasoning beyond just '17.

25

Team is going to need those DH AB's for Cano at some point. Besides, Lee (34) is actually a year older than Pearce (33). Neither is likely to be shredding in two years - they are both on the downside. 

27

23 HR's last year.  3 to RF, 2 to dead CF and the rest to LF.  He doesn't get many cheap ones:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl4xm1cULxY

Oh...he's got an arm, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdMOTRPCIKk

I like Miranda.  I would trade him out for Ozuna. 

Fowler is still my Dream Date but three years of Ozuna is better than one of Fowler.  I don't think you can steal Fowler from Chicago, even with just one year remaining before he gets the big 4 year contract.  Too many teams will want him.  But he's the better player AND he bats at the top of the lineup.

Desmond's best BA comes when he's batting 2nd.  He likes it there.  Ozuna rips at 5 or 6 and his .314 career OBP isn't  ToTO stuff. Martin's is .305.  I don't want the two of them at the top of the order.  Minus an OBP guy in LF/RF, I'm batting Vogs in the #2 spot. 

Pearce isn't terrible on D in the COF and he's a RHB with OBP chops:  .362, .373, .374 in '13, '14 & '16.  He won't be nearly as expensive...but he's 34 in April.  Has generally become a LHP masher (except for the weird '15).  Will be cheap-ish compared to lots of guys.

Of course, you can just get Aoki, who is a RHB, of sorts.  Well, his reverse split and .363 OBP vL makes him look like a RHB. I thinnk he's our most likely re-sign.  He doesn't get us younger or more athletic.

30

Desmond gets the QO, according to MLBT-R.

I think we're trading Smith.  If not, I wonder if we're willing to go with Heredia as his platoon mate or if we're bringing back Guti.

Pearce would be ducky in that role.

31

My #1 trade would be to get Stephen Vogt from the Orcs, who have younger (and cheaper and maybe better) catchers waiting in line. If you have him, you solve both the BU C issue *and* the BU 1B. I realize both he and Vogelbach are LH hitters, but neither has extreme platoon splits - well, Vogt isn't great against LHs, but not nearly as bad as Lind. But if you planned that Zunino, Vogelbach, and Vogt are each going to play in 100 games, and picked your mix-and-match spots, that could be a working combo. And it still leaves DH PAs for others.

32

He hit 113-117 the previous two years, and then dipped a shade below 100 last year.  A Seth Smith comp, and he'd likely go above 115 in Safeco Field and having to catch less.

Says here he's arb-eligible, coming off $3.7M as a third-year catcher, so you'd have to figure on some serious PT I imagine?

33

If Desmond hadn't gotten the QO, I'd be all for him in the #2 spot, with Cozart or Villar at SS and #1. But if it's at all possible to get Blackmon or Ozuna in trade, that would be, if anything, better. Blackmon or Villar solves the leadoff problem, with Cozart acceptable there. So fill SS, and then see if Blackmon or Ozuna fits better at an acceptable price.

You all know I've been a big Ozuna fan-boy. But everyone and their dog knows Miami needs a top young pitcher and that Ozuna is their chip to get one. Would he be worth Walker? I'm really torn by that. But we have nothing between Karns and Walker in potential that other teams would find to their liking. Gohara looks legit for an A level youngest-guy-in-the-league down in the AFL, but he's still 2 years away or more. The highest concentrations of Brazilians in the US are in Florida, Massachusetts, and New Jersey, so maybe Miami would have some interest in Luiz - but having lost Fernandez, they want help now. If I knew Felix was going to come back like Verlander, I'd trade Walker and accept that Karns is my #4 and Miranda #5. But O'Neill ++ going to Colorado for Blackmon makes more sense to me right now. 

34

Very tough for me to give up Taijuan ... if they want to talk Karns, that sounds like win-win and I like Karns as much as you do Ozuna ... my $0.02 anyway ...

35

If Karns + or Miranda + would get Ozuna, or even if it took both, I would jump on that. Both pitchers have upside yet to be shown, and I do think Karns is better than he showed in 2016 - which of course is the problem. But Ozuna is an everyday player. That would mean an everyday payoff. But losing Karns and/or Miranda just puts all the more on Felix recovering his majesty AND Paxton consolidating his gains AND Walker settling in with his good stuff. Kuma MAY be able to get another good year out of his body, but that's definitely not a given. So getting Ozuna would hurt even in the best case.

To me, O'Neill is only partly untouchable - I'm still concerned about his K rate. If Ozuna is available, is he a proven version of what O'Neill might be? Or is Blackmon the missing piece in the M's lineup as a leadoff man with power, speed, and defensive chops? To me, O'Neill might give a real boost if he came up and hit in June or July. But if he came up and K'd at 33+%, would he cost momentum? Will he even be ready in 2017? The window may be 2017-18 as things stand now. I wouldn't fault DiPoto if he used all his chips to go for it.

36
SonicBOOM!'s picture

Call me a homer... I've  been rooting for Taijuan and Tyler and James for too long to give any of them up for Ozuna or Blackmon. Miranda and Karns are expendable- even Heredia or Gamels- but not our fledgling starting pitchers, and not our Royal Canadian power hitter!

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