Chatspeak

Now, here's a late-at-night-out-of-my-mind-bleary post for yer :- )

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Does anybody care to explain why some communities find minimal chatspeak, and emoticons, as annoying as they do.  This isn't a challenge.  It's a request for information.

We were skimming a comments thread at a big M's blog and somebody threw "LOL" into a comment.

Immediately, in Terrence Stamp fashion, another poster icily intoned "please do not use chatspeak here."  (Of course, wtf is acceptable and encouraged.)

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Taking a quick surf around the 'net, the argument I've seen against it is a straw man:  somebody rips off a paragraph of chat-code such as  .... " Ik i say "Niiiiiiccccceeeee" retarded but w/e xD ....   Now do you get the point? "

No, I don't get the point yet.  If somebody used chatspeak so much that it slowed down my reading, sure, that would defeat the purpose.  I don't know of any chatspeak on MC, SSI, or in the comments that slows me down at all.

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A second argument:  teen-angst phone text is going to replace good literature.

My response:  it hasn't. 

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A third argument:  it's immature.  It conjures images of 12-year-old girls on their pink cell phones.

My response:  I have used, and do use, emoticons and LOL with my corporate supervisors.  Who use them back.  It's just one more type of lingo.  A construction supervisor scribbles NRP on a change order:  Not Our Problem.  So?

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I've IM'ed with 15-year-old roto owners whose every 3rd response was LOL.  But that wasn't lingo problem; it was a vapidity problem.

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I'm left completely opaque on this.  I don't challenge others' tastes; I just don't comprehend the tastes on this one.  Why is wtf amusing and functional, but lol is an offensive expression met with immediate, grim-jawed rebuke?   Am sure there's a reason.

If :- ) and :daps: are inherently annoying, why does every chat board have an array of emoticons in the text editor?

..............

Is there a reason to use chatspeak?

As for me, I use it lightly because .... (1) 90% of human communication is nonverbal.  If we were chatting in the Safeco stands and I needled you about something, my smile would defuse the situation.  (Come to think of it, it wouldn't, but you know.)

The internet doesn't allow this.  The internet is conducive to flame wars, hostility and outright animosity between people who would, in real life, be friends.  The cold text isn't buffered by body language. 

SSI endeavors to paste this buffer back in.  We have chosen to cultivate a friendly, rather than hostile, environment by going out of our way to use emoticons. 

Perhaps the cost associated is a *first impression* of immaturity to a first-time reader.  The benefit gained, hopefully, is fewer flame wars.  I approve of this tradeoff.

...............

And reason (2) is, I communicate on my phone when texting.  What becomes a habit there, is going to be abandoned elsewhere only if I make a concerted effort to do so.  You learn a specialized vocab, then you avoid it only given sufficient reason.

Comments open.  Enlighten me.

Cheers,

Dr D

Comments

1
Uncle Ted's picture

Chat speak can be invaluable, as your rightly note, for conveying tone in e-mails.  It can turn what would otherwise seem mean into a friendly jab.  Three things that do annoy me.  1) the use of chat speak in lieu of a standard English expression that better captures the point or at least captures it just as well.  2) The use of chat speak as a kind of speech tick.  I have received e-mails where "lol" was used in ways that just looked like e-mail nervousness (like a person giggling inappropriately because they are stressed).  One of the benefits of e-mail is that it allows you to collect yourself and not be nervous in your communications with others.  3) I have students who seem to have lost the ability to write a formal e-mail.  E-mails to your professor aren't simply text messages done on a computer. This is especially so when you are asking for a favor that will take a substantial amount of time to fulfill. Admittedly this isn't the fault of chat speak per se, but excessive chat speak does cut down on the formality of communications, and some communications should be formal in tone.

2

...who primarily teaches 9th graders...says that all of her e-mails now look like text messages- including those from students asking for help with homework or whatever else...and she finds it disrespectful and a disturbing trend.
I use chat speak the way it probably should be used.  To shorthand expressions that get siad a gazillion times like punctuation (in my humble opinion, for what it's worth, laughing out loud, thank you, talk to you later, I'll believe it when I see it, oh my goodness...things like this that get added to a thought to convey the emotion attached to the thought or an important addendum that in some other way conveys tone).  I don't use shorthand to REPLACE grammar and vocabulary though.  I might actually UNDER-use emoticons...I get complaints about that from time to time.
But I agree with the original post...net shorthand is not the next great root of evil. :)  People need to lighten up just a tiny bit.

3

Agree with all of that.
There are times when familiarity is inappropriate -- asking for your professor's time is definitely one of those.  Chatspeak does convey extreme familiarity, and in certain cases that could definitely be off-putting.
c-points

4

Couldn't agree more that when overused, it becomes a legitimate nuisance.
............
Neither of you two especially seemed to disagree with me, that there's not much reason to take offense at the occasional "LOL" on a blog -
So far, I'll consider myself non-reality-checked ... :- )

5
IcebreakerX's picture

This goes in hand with your Sabermetric Fatigue posts. It's literary elitism. And chatspeak is counterintuitive and unacceptable in the PhD review room.
Now, I don't encourage chatspeak. In fact, I'm a twitter user and I make it a point NOT to use chatspeak because it reduces the challenge of being elloquent in 140 charaters. Like Shakespeare said, brevity is the soul of wit.
But linguists, from what I have heard, accept the fact that chatspeak and its brethren are part of the evolving English lexicon. Much like the recent Oxford English Word 'unfriend', which is a complete bastardization of the English language per se, English experts accept that chatspeak is a natural evolution of the language.
Chatspeak is nothing harmful. It's the users of English adapting to typing with just thumbs.
(Somewhat off topic, but LL's two rules of no politics and no chatspeak are, for me, overly intolerant. I couldn't even comment on the fact that Barack Obama was making the first pitch at the All Star Game. The 'spirit' of the rule is to keep out political bickering, yet I was still smited with the rule on the comment that Barack Obama, our president, was throwing the first pitch. I have yet to return.)

6
IcebreakerX's picture

I work with 6-12s in a K-12 school every day.
What students suck at is pure and simple email etiquette, and NOT because of their command of chatspeak. And that's no surprise because, IMO, our curriculum doesn't teach *email* writing, even if it does *letter* writing. And most students aren't smart enough to transfer *letter* writing skills to *email*. Most schools, I imagine, also don't teach things like the lack of emotional transfer on paper/electronic vs. talking.

7
Uncle Ted's picture

In defense of a strict no chat speak rule:
 
It is quite reasonable for a blog to want to avoid an overabundance of chat speak in the comment section.  If you start getting too many posts like this:  OMFGBBQ FELIX is so L33T LOL he totally ROXXORED that guy LOL!.
Too much of it does turn the comment section into something a bit tasteless, and it is a legitimate interest of a blog to have some say in the style, content and tone of the comments section.  
 
How can you achieve a goal of limiting chat speak?  One option is to just use subjective appraisals of what counts as too much.  Unfortunately, people get pissed off when you use subjective appraisals like this.  So that leaves a second option, you just rule it out entirely.
I don't really have a stand on what the right option is, but I would be loathe to infer elitism since there is another more reasonable interpretation.  

8
Jeff Sullivan's picture

The idea behind the capitalization/no-chatspeak rule is to enhance readability while forcing people to think a little more about what they're saying. We're more lax in game threads, but those aside, we pride ourselves on being a readable community. A crude one that isn't for everyone, to be sure, but a readable one. And while the occasional lol isn't bad, one needs to be strict, because allow one lol and you're on the slippery slope where you start to allow more and more, and then you turn into the average Internet community instead of a better one. The average Internet community is borderline unreadable, and we'd rather not take our chances. Anybody who has a problem with having to write in more complete sentences is someone we probably don't want hanging around anyway.
(Emoticons are permitted, for whatever that's worth.)
As for IcebreakerX's remark, I know it's strict, but consider the following hypothetical exchange:
"Hey, Obama is throwing out the first pitch.""I bet his pitch will fall short, just like everything else he's tried.""(escalation)"
Nothing tears an Internet community apart quite like political bickering, and so this is one area where we absolutely have to have a no-tolerance policy, because people love to argue politics, and if you give them an opening, they'll take advantage of it. It's rarely the first political comment in a thread that we have a problem with. It's the potential fallout. Your comment, on its own, would've been fine. But the odds of it being left alone aren't guaranteed, and we don't want to have to deal with the downside, because political arguments can be ugly.
You could make the argument that our readers are smart enough to be reasonable. Most of them are. But I'm not going to take that risk.

9

There are two or three separate questions here ... 1) Does a blog author have the prerogative to set style and tone as he likes it - obviously yes.  2) Am I *missing* something about chatspeak that several blogs seem hip to.  3) Various peripheral ideas brought out here.
As far as I can tell, *most* of the major blogs, including USSM, Prospect Insider, ProBallNW etc seem to follow LL's lead in frowning on chatspeak.   True, it happened to be an LL thread I was skimming, when I saw a guy unnecessarily gruff about "LOL" -- after all, WTF is 100% kosher at LL -- and it got me to wondering (in my 5 a.m. bender warped-mind mode) about cyber-Seattle (and cyber-baseball) in general.
That Jeff Sullivan and his 30,000 readers might (or might not) prefer to avoid the "slippery slope" is of course not an issue for me.  LL has the right to its preferences on its own blog.
My own question pertains to whether I'd missed something about why Chatspeak offends -- after all, spam doesn't offend me much either.  The hostile reactions to spam (links to one's home board in a chat thread) are quite opaque to me also.
................
The thread so far has been interesting...

10

I've never had any problem with it at all at Detectovision.com or SSI.com.  We use chatspeak lightly and it has never proliferated.
Of course, we only have a couple of thousand readers to manage, not 20,000.  And our comments threads run 10 or 20, not four hundred.
The bigger your audience, the more valuable is simplification.

11

If I had LL's audience -- size and heavy sports-bar, student-lounge demographic -- I'd draw the line at zero on politics as well.
Couldn't agree more that, at LL, one Obama remark would lead to a challenge or "correction" or a neo-con bashing, and by the third comment you're either going to have a Democratic National Convention or else a brawl on the field.  :- )
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On the other hand, Tango's partner MGL took a driveby swipe at climate dissenters the other day -- and amazingly, the debate thread turned out manageable, adult, and productive.  I was quite taken aback.

12

The lead author has demonstrated himself to be decidedly non-elitist, so FWIW ;- ) SSI has no trouble buying his statement that he just doesn't want to deal with sloppy, nuisance-forming chatspeak syndromes.
No worries here.
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As to other commentors and bloggers around baseball, having heard various POV's about Chatspeak, I'll reserve the right to my own opinion as to how much of that is 'elitism.'  :- )

13

At bottom, there are a lot of these kinds of syndromes that are just completely opaque to me.
Spam, for instance -- a guy will comment in a thread, and paste a link to his own (maybe non-baseball) site, and four guys will go off on him (or used to, anyway). 
I never "got" this.  Especially at the old Fanhome.com, mods went apoplectic at "the attempts to siphon off traffic."  We argued that net traffic is not a zero-sum game, but the flame wars went on.
....................
We were curious as to whether we were missing something about chatspeak.
Having heard all sides, I now lean towards the view that the hostility towards it is vastly out of proportion, and frequently for weird reasons.
But it's hardly an important issue.  :- )
TTFN,
Jeff C

14
Jeff Sullivan's picture

I'm also just not the biggest fan of reading chatspeak, and while it doesn't offend me, I've read other SBN communities and seen what can happen when you combine chatspeak with auto-updating comments. There are sites out there that will have one funny comment followed by five LMFAO's and five +1's. And maybe I'm weird, but I just find that really annoying. Reminds me too much of myself IM'ing as as teenager.
 
We may be a little strict about our rules, but on the other hand, no one worthwhile is going to be scared off by a no chatspeak/no politics/no religion policy on a baseball blog, so it's all upside.

15

...if I hear one more AGW-proponent call the crowd that disagrees with them "climate deniers" or "climate change skeptics"...*sigh*
Climate denier in particular is a hateful use of Nazi-referencing slang that needs to stop IMMEDIATELY in scientific circles and on the floor of political arenas.  I get irked at skeptics because it implies we don't believe the climate is changing, which is not the case.  The correct thing to call us would actually be "anthropogenic global warming skeptics" or "climate change orthodoxy dissenters"

16

The "climate change skeptic" phrase frames the debate in an unfortunate way.  I don't know how consciously this deception is perpetrated ...
It's tough to re-frame the debate over to the less-deceptive "those who ask for proof of the Inconvenient Truth that American industrial activity is about to end life as we know it in five years," and keep it in a soundbite.
Inconvenient Truth Investigator?  Wouldn't poll with the audiences quite the same way... :- )

17

...AGW-Skeptic (as opposed to Climate Change Skeptic) because we are not skeptical of climate change...we're skeptical of manmade alarm-raising climate change.  Many in the AGW-skeptic camp don't even think manmade climate change is ZERO...I, for one, think humans are having SOME influence on climate...what I don't think is that our influence on climate is enough that we should be spending gazillions of dollars combating it when we have much bigger problems that we KNOW are happening and threaten lives in the here and now.
But if you prefer to avoid any and all spin phrases (skeptic is political spin), then the appropriate phrase would be something like "natural climate change advocates" because our primary mission has been to raise awareness of the climate forcing terms that are being ignored or improperly studied by climate scientists when they formulate general circulation models to predict future changes.  My main issue right now is the oceanic temperature cycles - the Pacific Decadal Oscillation and the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation...the combination of which explain a large percentage of the planet's temperature changes in the 20th century.  Climate modelers ignore the PDO/AMO with the assumption that those oscillations should have averaged out to zero impact on planetary temperature after 120 years of data and because they can't figure out what equations they need to use to get their models to accurately reproduce those cycles.  I want to see government money pouring into climate labs specifically earmarked for studying the PDO/AMO and trying to figure out the physical reasons that they occur.  After that, I want us to study solar climate variability in greater depth.  And after that, cosmic radiation and seismic activity and their impacts on climate.  And after that, any other external driver that might impact cloud cover or planetary albedo.  Only once we've figured out the net impacts of as many of those things as possible and modeled them correctly with a GCM are we really ready to try to quantify the impacts of human-generated CO2 and black carbon emissions on temperature.  Not before.

18

Some have started calling us "True Climate Scientists" if you want the skeptic political spin phrase. :)  Or the "Resiliant Earthers" (as in...a belief that Earth has a lot of ways of balancing itself out climatologically)...or the "Climate Anti-alarmists" (typically used when we're calling Gore Desciples "Climate Alarmists")

19
Uncle Ted's picture

 
I gather that if there is a reasonable objection to the AGW thesis it is not that there isn't an available mechanism (greenhouse gases) that we would expect to have the result of increased global temperatures all other things being equal, but rather that we don't know if all other things are equal.  I.e. we don't know if there aren't other compensating causal factors.  Second, I gather that the objection is that we don't really know the degree to which (no pun intended) greenhouse gases would increase global temperatures, all other things being equal, and hence we can't with any high level of certainty look at the actual changes in global temperatures and say that such and such a percent is due to greenhouse gas emissions.  
 
Anti-AGW could really be any one of the following, and it is sad that they all get lumped together, since there actually is a serious debate to be had over 3-6. The political discourse unfortunately is such that on the left you are branded a heretic if you take anything on this list seriously, and on the right, you are branded a heretic if you think that there is merit to the AGW thesis at all (which 3-6 of the following do).  
1) You think that global temperatures aren't rising (these people, I gather, are simply wrong)
2) You think that temperatures are rising, but that it's not attributable to human activity in any way.  (again, I gather that there is little disagreement amongst scientists that these people are also wrong).
3) You think that temperatures are rising, and that it is partially attributable to human activities, but that the percentage attributable to human activity might be substantially lower than we have been led to believe by Gore, for instance.
4) You think that temperature is rising, and that it is largely attributable to human activities, but that the expected effects of increased temperatures are not likely to be as dire as we have been led to believe by Gore, for instance.
5) You think that the temperature is rising, and that it is largely attributable to human activities, and that the expected effects of increased temperatures will be dire, but that stopping greenhouse gas emissions will  be very expensive, and have similarly dire consequences for the economy.  A cost benefit analysis of the situation would favor not accepting substantial limits on greenhouse gas emissions. 
6) (a variation on 5, I think) You think that the temperature is rising, and that it is largely attributable to human activities, and that the expected effects of increased temperatures will be dire, but you think it is too late to do anything meaningful about it.
 
As an added wrinkle, even if I granted that from the perspective of pure science, your analysis would be right Matt, the worry is that this is a decision under uncertainty with potentially dire consequences if we get things wrong.  If someone said to you "given our current best evidence we think there is about a 30% chance that you have cancer that will kill you in 6 months if untreated.  If treated you will have a 90% chance of survival. You have two options.  1) you could do a range of other tests that will take 5 months, after which our certainty as to whether you have the cancer will approach 90%.  If you do have the cancer, though, at that point you will almost certainly die.  2) We can treat you, hence giving you a 90% survival chance, but the treatment is very expensive, and you will end up paying us 30% percent of your income for the next 20 years."  Which would you do?  I'm not claiming that the answer to this question is obvious.  Perhaps you don't even agree that this is even (roughly) analogous to the decision we do in fact face vis a vis global climate change.
 
In any case, I'm curious whether you'd agree with this appraisal of things.

20
Uncle Ted's picture

I should add that the point of thinking of this as a decision under uncertainty, is that it partially cuts through the political games.  If someone came up with a believable policy that would cut greenhouse gas emissions by 90% and cost only 10 million dollars, then everyone ought to support that policy who thinks that there is a non-negligible chance that the AGW thesis is true. (and from what I gather, everyone should believe that there is a non-negligible chance that the AGW thesis is true).  I don't know what the level of certainty or the cost should have to be for accepting any particular policy proposal.  But being in principle opposed to spending money on greenhouse gas reduction, (or conversely being in principle committed to spending whatever it takes to cut emissions) is not a tenable position.  I get the impression from certain right wing pundits that this is the stance they have taken, or at least the eye-rolling behavior every time global climate change gets mentioned indicates as much.

22

Firstly...there *IS* reasonable cause to question the global temperature record.  For two basic reasons:
1) The people in charge of collecting, analyzing, and statistically manipulating all of the station data that goes into calculating the global surface temperature record have demonstrated that they are not above using clever statistical machinations to make the data say what they need it to say.
2) If you actually delve into the process used to attempt to account for the inherent biases and errors in the surface data, you will find some very unsavory things.  Gridded HadCRUT temperature data and NASA GISS monthly data both undergo a process called homogenization where, to adjust the temperatures at one station at points that seem statistically strange (i.e. large apparent jumps occur in the annual record that may or may not be linked to changes in the position of the thermometer, the surrounding environment etc), several surrounding stations in the grouping of acceptible long term temperature records are used...the trend at one location is made to fit with the trends at other locations.  This might seem like a good idea in theory, but in practice, it's only a good idea if your network of thermometers is dense enough that the surrounding several stations have similar climatologies.  Unfortunately, the thermometers that actually get used are only the longest records...about 1200 stations to explain the entire world...which means that the nearest five stations to your thermometer could be 500, 1000, 1500 km away in completely different climate zones.
Beyond that objection, a survey of just the US temperature record reveals that over 3/4 of our thermometers don't meet NOAA/NWS guidelines for the placement of the thermometer.  They're often technically over grass, but it's right next to a paved airport runway, and they rarely have the necessary radiation shield or Stevenson Screen.  It's quite appalling actually.
Beyond even that objection...even if we believed our numbers, the magnitude of temperature increase (about 0.7 C) is barely larger than the uncertainty in a single temperature measurement at a single thermometer site (0.5 C even in a good thermocouple and most of these thermometers are still mercury in glass in the poorer nations and thermocouples here in the US that were last callibrated many years ago LOL).  Unfortunately, the IPCC reports claim uncertainties in their global surface temperature averages that are IMPOSSIBLY small...something like +/- 0.05 C.  And that's for gridded data that's been both homogenized AND interpolated to cover parts of the world where there isn't any data (e.g. Antarctica, where exactly ONE station is used...and it's a station on one of the northern-most peninsulas near a scientific research outpost...that statio is made to represent the whole continent??)
Beyond THAT objection...there's the biased distribution of thermometers...disproportionately many temperature records occur in areas that have become increasingly urbanized.  If you search YouTube, you will find a very simple scientific experiment done by a SIXTH GRADER revealing that a simple comparison of non-urban with near-urban sites that are close to each other in the US data set makes the urban heat island impact very apparent, especially in overnight lows and in northern latitutdes.
With that having been clarified...
The skeptic camp is loosely divided in about four branches (and this would be pretty similar to your 2-6):
1) You believe temperatures have increased, but the anthropogenic portion has not been scientifically proven.  There's a reasonable case here as well.  CO2 is definitely a greenhouse gas...you can measure this in a lab.  However, it's not at all clear that the climate system has a positive net feedback in response to increased CO2.  In fact, the paleo-climate record reveals about an 800 year lag between temperature increase and SUBSEQUENT CO2 increase (before the 20th century, CO2 has *NEVER* driven temperature changes...a warmer ocean body is less dense and less able to hold dissolved CO2...releasing far...FAR more of the gas than humans ever could into the atmosphere during many climate epochs).  What we do know is that our current climate models are completely wrong about how the Earth's radiation budget should respond to increasing CO2 in the short term.  Data from CERES (a NASA-funded satellite program) suggests that as the Earth's temperature increases, the outgoing radiation Earth emits also increases...climate models claim that a doubling of CO2 will result in a DECREASE in outgoing radiation due to other feedback mechanisms decreasing planetary albedo and this has thus far not been accurate.  The question of whether CO2-warming will have the net effect of raising planetary temperatures long term is not solved.
2) You believe that CO2 can warm the Earth some, but that the signal we've seen thus far can't have been very large when empirical analysis of other potential climate forcings like the oceanic oscillations, solar-climate variability, urbanization and land use changes and cosmic ray/cloud interactions can be shown to explain a large portion of recent temperature fluctuations.
3) You believe that humans are an adaptable species and that even if global warming did continue as a result of CO2 emission, it might be a net POSITIVE for us...some relevant research suggests that net primary production in the oceans would increase under warmer conditions (meaning more CO2 would get eaten by photosynthesis done by plankton and kelp and the like), and that the growing seasons might be longer in some crucial areas that could help increase food production for the world's population.  Still others have suggested that a warmer Earth would also be a rainier Earth, which is good for humanity.  And this is nto far fetched.  During the Medieval Warm Period, when planetary temperatures were likely at least as warm as today (if not warmer), food production was BOUNTIFUL compared to the centuries before 900 AD when the planet was a bit cooler.  Also note, biodiversity was much greater during the Cretaceous warm period (the time of the dinosaurs when there was absolutely no ice on this planet except at very high elevation and average temperatures were about 12 C warmer than today).
4) You believe that the UN and various nations of the world are attempting to use global warming to scare the people into one global government run by an unelected olegarchy that controls the global economy and has designs on reducing global population because of fears that we are unsustainably overcrowding the planet.  The political side of the Anti-AGW crowd has some overlap with the scientific side but does not count me as a member.  I think that while it's possible some in the UN and in the scientific community express thoguhts like the above (I've read books and seen quotes in the ClimateGate email leak that suggest this)...the vast majority of AGW-proponents are in this because they really believe global warming is a major threat, and the odds of one global government ever becoming reality are so low as to make this concern meaningless.
If you want to see a full scientific review of climate science from the skeptical position, I recommend you google "The Climate Skeptic's Handbook"...the second version of this, which includes analysis of ClimateGate BTW, is available for free in PDF form and neatly organized into the few dozen specific scientific and policy-based objections that have been raised about AGW orthodoxy.

23
Uncle Ted's picture

To say that AGW policy will "certainly" create a disaster is, I hope, supposed to be rhetorical hyperbole.  There are any of a number of policies that could be adopted, plus we don't know with "certainty" what the future of technological innovation will yield.  Perhaps with limited funding, motivated by a concern for AGW, we can stumble on carbon neutral energy sources that are even cheaper than the carbon producing alternatives.  You are stacking the deck here.  
My point was a formal one.  This IS a decision under uncertainty.  Of course, different beliefs about the percentages and costs will alter what policies you think we should adopt.  
My only point is that the 'purist" positions that say either we have to spend whatever is necessary to stop AGW or, we shouldn't spend anything on AGW motivated concerns, are irresponsible.  There will likely be promising "carbon reducing" research proposals which should be supported because they are good buys, even if one thinks, as you do, that the chance of catastrophe is very low.  Similarly there will likely be carbon reducing proposals that should be rejected because the cost is too high (outlawing driving, for instance).  The thought is that if we can at least agree on the form that the question is to take (a cost benefit analysis under uncertainty) we can cut through some of the more politically motivated chatter and get down to making a responsible decision.  (I should add that mere cost benefit analysis is just a starting point for setting policy.  There can also be questions of distributive justice, for instance, like when India claims that it is unfair for the US to restrict their economic development given that the US has already benefited from carbon intensive energy production.)

24

To be clear...my (100% certainty of disastrous economic impacts of AGW-policy) was in direct response to the Al Gore purist position that coal taxes, carbon credits etc should be applied to the point where it's twice as expensive (or more) to use carbon energy as it is now while at the same time charging first world nations huge sums of money in reparations made to third world nations for the damage we've supposedly done...basically the original proposed Copenhagen treaty.

25
glmuskie's picture

My classmates and I were all taught in 10th grade that 'correct' English is English that is appropriate for the setting.  Chatspeak in a formal letter, 'incorrect'.  Formal English in a video game chat room, also 'incorrect'.  : )
A person can run their blog however they see fit, of course.  but disallowing mild chatspeak on a sports blog / discussion room, that seems, uh, a bit haughty. 
Too many acronymns, or digits in the middle of words, makes something less readable for me.  But I also appreciate the economy of IBIWISI and other internet shorthand.  These are words that can have great utility, to both the typer and the reader.  But the economy can be lost if there are more acronymns (or too many obscure ones) than your audience can handle.  If your audience isn't teenage or young adult computer geeks, they likely won't get the meaning, or will have to waste 15 minutes of their time looking them up.
Words like LOL and emoticons perform an additional function, that of communicating emotion.  They modify statements, and their inclusion can completely change the meaning of what someone types.  IMO they are very important to almost all non-formal net dialogue, because they help fill the void created by the absence of face-to-face communication.  
WTF is an interesting one, because it seems to actually bend language in a (slightly) more civilized direction.  You communicate the obscenity without writing it.
Anyway, I see chatspeak as an evolution and a net 'plus' to lanuguage.  If a blog censors it all of it, it's their loss.

26
okdan's picture

Speaking from the point of view of someone who has spent way too much time in über-nerdy forums where OMGWTFBBQ!!!11 reigns supreme... I gotta say that you and the rest of the LL crew do a fantastic job of maintaining the vibe and enjoyment of the site. I think a lot of it is due to the quality of the community itself obviously, indicated by the awesome dudes I've met at the various meetups, but still.
It's not easy to keep a huge community of clever nerds with too much time on their hands on topic. But yet, you've done it. Huzzah, I say.
The same applies, albeit on a smaller scale here at SSI (and formerly DOV). The quality of discussion that happens on both these sites is always impressive to me.

27
Taro's picture

Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Running a blog is a labor of love in the first place, so you'd want to make sure that your little universe doesn't stress you out day-to-day.
For Doc its swearing, and for Jeff its emoticons.

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IcebreakerX's picture

But, IMO, the job of a moderator is to moderate and not take short-cuts on the job. Limiting chat speak and politics, for me, is a cop out. If you don't want to police, you just have to find more police to do the job.
(Gizmodo is probably actually the best example of a somewhat good control system that seems to work for the most part.)
I do understand that most blogs are labors of love and volunteership, but I just don't agree with any spectrum of limiting the potential of the community. I prefer participting a community where I am trusted with some semblence of trust. I think banning political *bickering* is the point. Banning politics is just a missed target, and this is part of my policy making at the school I work at as well (for instance, I didn't ban games in our school until all other controls were out of the question).

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Ultimately, a lot of the chat-speak issue comes down to effort-to-impact ratio.
Personally, I am not a fan of zero tolerance policies - as I see them as "lazy" -- removing the ability to judge something contextually in exchange for the ease of a rule to be enforced blindly.  It's no simple matter to moderate discussions that can easily degenerate into arguments and destroy civil conversation at a moment's notice.
So, each board/blog has its particular tolerances and rules of what constitutes acceptable discourse.  In an ideal world, a moderator could tell "Joe123" -- "you're getting a little over the top with the chat-speak, could you dial it down a notch?" -- and Joe would adjust his posting and everyone would move on.  Problem is -- too often Joe123's response is going to be to go, "why you hatin' on me - when Sue456 is waaaay worse?" -- which leads only to many posts about everything except what the topics at hand actually are.
I prefer MC and SSI because they are less tolerant of intolerance, (oh, the irony).  Basically, they have a kinder, gentler tone than LL or USSM, so for my purposes, the noise to signal ratio at these other sites isn't amenable to my personal needs.  But, obviously, there are lots of different flavors of audiences.
I think zero-tolerance policies are somewhat (ironically) necessary at the sites that allow more open dissent.  When you require more "reasonable" posting, you get more reasonable posters - so the gentle rebuke can be followed more readily w/o it being viewed as a personal attack, (mostly).  Springer and Oprah both have their audiences - but only one requires armed guards as a necessity.
 

30
Jeff Sullivan's picture

What is the upside of allowing political discussion on a baseball blog?
 
If the biggest complaint about LL is that it's strict about its no politics/no religion/no chatspeak stance, I'd say we're doing a pretty good job.

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IcebreakerX's picture

There's no downside. I think a healthy community should have a variance. I agree with the idea of keeping a thread on topic, but I think there can be more tolerance on any OT topic or the like. I guess I'm more of a forum type of person, but eh.
But yes, you guys are doing a [really] good job.

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Jeff Sullivan's picture

In a perfect world, LL would be a 100% free community, and everything would work. But let's say I open up, say, a weekly political thread. People take politics seriously, and they take political disagreement seriously, and it is entirely possible, if not probable, that people would form strong opinions of other posters in that thread and respond to them accordingly in others.
 
I don't want groups of Mariner fans to start hating each other just because they voted for a different governor, you know?

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IcebreakerX's picture

But I guess I'm more on the side to try to make things happen. Probably my habit from working at a school. My goal has always been to enforce rules and things through community pressure than corporal punishments. It has worked to an extent here.
Great convo and thanks, Jeff. I appreciate you taking time to talk and all. 

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misterjonez's picture

is a big factor to consider, at least when debating the policing of interaction in any medium.  If the author/editor/policeman is able to directly interact with each and every commenter, then the likelihood of a stable environment goes quite high.  Jeff Sullivan used to have a smallish audience back when he was LeoneForThird (4?), but his writing style and overall readability have won him one of the sportsworld's biggest team-centered blogs.
There are simply too many people interacting to allow for 100% free engagement rules.  Once you get into his type of traffic volume, the spectrum will be completely represented on pretty much any variable, whether it's political, social, economical or even geographical.  I agree with Ice about disliking the *types* of rules that LL enforces, but I understand that they're absolutely necessary.  For example:
I used to be a poster on bloodyelbow.com, which is the premier MMA site out there.  The quality of writing, analysis and newsfeed is unmatched anywhere.  I know, because I've tried to find its equal.  They banned me because I disagree with a fundamental principle that one of the chief editors espouses, and I did so quite eloquently and effectively.  Their rules and enforcement are harsh, really harsh.  But it's because of those rules that their quality is unmatched.  They attract people (like myself) who don't get bogged down in the mindlessness which all-too-often permeates online interactions (for whatEVER reason), and who can interact intelligently and debate issues fairly even-handedly.
The other big sites out there have no such rules, and there's basically zero point in reading the threads because of the degenerative nature of the comments.  At BE you would find tons of good info and insight in the threads, often making the article itself pale in comparison to the community contributions.  Everywhere else, it's basically just the same as a newspaper blog, where you have to work a little harder than you're willing in order to amplify the original article.
So while I dislike the rules at the premier sites out there, I do understand that they serve a purpose and I also enjoy the environment that such rules (generally) help create.

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IcebreakerX's picture

Gizmodo has one of the most interesting comment policing system, and for the most part, it works well.
The idea is to have a 'core' of people who promote or demote comments. The idea, as I understand it, is to have it so as you gain more prestige on the system, you're allowed to also help out with policing by killing off trolls, useless banter, etc. It's sort of a crowdsourcing/democratization of policing comment which creates a website 'norm' through its community.
I think part of it might be technological limitations as well as non-technological limiations to an extent, but I feel that there is always a solution beyond pure banning.

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misterjonez's picture

I guess, but in a nutshell, Kid Nat (one of the chief editors) really wants all MMA to be co-promoted, and I (along with others) have simply demolished his arguments that it improves the sport time and time again.  He banned a guy named subo last year sometime, when I was doing my trans-pacific sailboat trip, and when I got back I didn't know what happened to him.  So I asked.
Some guys were relaying to me what happened, I said it was 'weak' the way it all went down, and Nate took the opportunity to ban me (apparently?) for saying it was weak.
Which is too bad, because I was probably one of the top ten posters there for actual technical contributions.  Oh well.  Wanna start an MMA blog with me, taro?  I've got computer programmers who could whip something up for us in about a month if I gave them the go-ahead ;)

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misterjonez's picture

SBNation actually performs the majority of this, or at least allows for it to be performed.
The banhammer should be used sparingly, and it should be for serious offenses or multiple repeat offenses after warnings.  For my own example, it was just a political thing.  They never issued me a single warning for anything I posted on their site, the little guy just couldn't take dissenting opinion of his position, so he took out one of his most eloquent opponents (me) with basic thuggery.
It's all good, though.  I take it as a clear compliment to my logical and communication abilities ;)  Online interactivity will continue to evolve, and the soft rules governing online interaction will become more defined as time goes on.  On the internet, the Free Market wins out.

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