Edgar and LoMo
Let's see whether this one's got the distance...

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At Prospect Insider, Luke Arkins wrote a model article on the question of 'Did Edgar Fix the Mariners' Offense?'  Dr. D enjoyed it, structurally at a bare minimum, because it is:

  • Concrete and specific, rather than vague or evasive
  • Open-minded, as opposed to "This is the answer you must accept"
  • Evidence-based, so we can think for ourselves, rather than "I and the scouts are agreed here"
  • Aimed at areas of local interest

Anyway, Arkins offers a few thoughts on how each individual Mariner might have been affected by The Edgar.  Dr. D will follow on...

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WHAT THE QUESTION ISN'T

Can a batting coach single-handedly directly cause a lineup of hitters to go from an 88 tOPS+ in the first half to a 114 tOPS+ in the second half?  That's kind of like asking whether Peyton Manning can cause a team to go from 4-12 to 12-4 and back again.  ... wait ...

No, we're kidding.  Of course there's no such thing as an elephant who leaves tracks like that in your backyard snow.  You would be talking about whether Edgar was worth 20+ WAR, whether he was worth $100-200MM per season.  Here is one point, at least, that doesn't have to be argued.  We all know that there is no such thing as a hitting coach who turns nine Logan Morrisons into nine Kyle Seagers.

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WHAT THE PROBLEM AIN'T

We here, at SSI, aren't arguing about whether to bring Edgar back in 2016. 

Part of the pre-2015 firestorm about Nelson Cruz was --- > the underlying quasi-assumption "if we do this we're being idiots."  Of COURSE it wasn't us deciding anyway; we know that, on a conscious level.  But whatever our subconscious "votes" are on Cruz, he's here.  Edgar will be, too.

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WHAT THE SITUATION WON'T BE

In March, Edgar is not going to have to dig the Mariners out of a hole; he won't have to teach the Mariners how to hit.  They done climbed out of the coffin already.

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CAVEAT

Now, all that said, a real good hitting coach or pitching coach -- or manager, for that matter -- can be the first domino in a cascade of events that pay off huge.  At least in one season, or in two.  You fix one guy, then you fix two, then the club gets caught up in the excitement, and they relax into their swings ... that ain't farfetched.  As James has pointed out, 90% or more of 'Cinderella' seasons were caused by a change in the field manager.

Edgar might have indirectly caused, been the first domino falling towards, a colossal hitting turnaround.

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LOGAN MORRISON

via Shannon Drayer, Arkins pointed out this interesting quote from LoMo:

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Another underachieving Seattle regular who could use Edgar’s help is first baseman Logan Morrison. The 28-year-old started off very poorly in April, although he showed signs of returning to form during May and June. Regrettably, the combination of a bruised thumb and Montero’s arrival significantly reduced his second-half playing time at first base.

Morrison did bounce back in September and made sure to give his hitting coach credit when he told Shannon Drayer of 710 ESPN Seattle “Shoot, I have a new swing. He’s been trying to get me to do this for like a month now.” Only time will tell if “LoMo” can sustain the improvement he enjoyed during the last month of the regular season.

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Okay, first of all:  it's easy enough for Morrison to say "Hey!  I'm fixed now and ready to roll for 2016!  Save my first base seat!" and then point at any life preserver that the captain will pull back over the side of the boat.  So Dr. D does little but smile wryly at Morrison's claim.   For one thing, it's been five full years since LoMo's 123 OPS+ debut at age 22.

But still.  Here is the Sept. 6 Drayer interview and LoMo's basic praise was for the feel that Edgar bestowed on him.  That's fine by Dr. D, who compares it to the psychological feel that a golf caddie might give a Tour pro.  

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"I am always looking to get better, do something with the swing and ask Edgar's opinion on it," he said. "He's obviously got a lot of knowledge and encouraged me to try different things. He says it looks good but it depends on how it feels so that's pretty much what we have been going with. Just being able to learn from him has been pretty cool."

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To Dr. D, the above sounds ominously similar to "I've got no idea why I had a good two weeks."  Um, but he's got a whole new swing.  Ho-kay.

But carry on.  As to specifics, he characterized his 'new swing' thusly:

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"Just getting a little more rhythm, pumping my hands, trying to get my hands to work up and back at the correct time and seeing more consistent results that way," he explained. "It's more of a sequencing issue. My hands get back too early, they get stuck behind me. If they work up at the right time when my hips are going it puts everything in line and I am able to build speed behind me (and) hit the ball the other way. Drive it that way and also stay back on offspeed pitches."

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As we know, Edgar is huge on hand position at release -- and the change in a hitter's hand timing might be fractionally small.  Maybe the hands tip backwards only 0.05 seconds earlier, and maybe they only move 0.5 inches differently.  In aikido they call this "moving without motion," the idea that your weight changes just a bit under your skin, so --- > we shouldn't expect to see the above changes on video.

That said, you can't blame a man for trying :- ) so Dr. D will go check the vids.... okay, taking a few examples from late-season, when he was going great, and a few from July, when he was hitting .125.  The first is from July and the second from October:

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LoMo in July
LoMo in July

LoMo late season
LoMo late season

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From a static point of view, there are no little yellow lines you can PhotoShop in to show a difference.  Morrison's hands are in exactly the same position, at the same time ... every other static checkpoint?  You couldn't ask a guy to repeat his swing any better.

But!  If you watch the dynamic videos of the above swings ...

LoMo in July

LoMo in Late Season

You can see that on the good swing, his shoulder isn't quite as coiled, not under the same 'tension' if you will.  Also, he does not "jerk" into the swing as early as he did in July.  Go back and watch a few times.  When he's going bad, he sort of compresses his lips, stomps the front foot early, shows a tense anticipation ... when he's going good he tenses the whole front side a bit less, and stays visibly calm as the energy approaches.  It's pretty sweet the way the pitch gets to the 40-foot mark and LoMo is still like, "hmm. Ok, whatever."

Textbook case of "relaxing into your swing" or "letting the game come to you."

On the other hand, this is true of every hitter when he's going good vs going bad :- )

We report you decide,

Dr D

Comments

1
jokestar's picture

LoMo is one of my favorite players. He has a goofy sense of humor that appeals to me. He also is a human vacuum cleaner at first. (Of course, this is based on my eye test only.) He saves a considerable amount of errors with his glove. He gives the other infielders the comfort of knowing that, even, a rushed, errant, throw will, most likely, be handled at first. So, if there is a passable chance, with Edgar's help, of his offense improving to an acceptable level, the M's should keep him.

3
jokestar's picture

I read the article at LL and found it interesting. But, as I remember, there was no mention of all the kudos that the big three, Cano, Cruz and Seager, have, repeatedly, lavished on Edgar in countless interviews. These are professional hitters, so praise from them carries more weight with me.

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You would think that Cano's, Cruz', and Seager's praise (as well as other hitters' praise) would weigh more heavily with the bloggers than it does.  True, you can reason that the quotes are for public consumption, but it's also true that they've spoken differently about Edgar than they did about Johnson.

... I think it was Prospect Insider, by the way.  Good stuff jokestar.

5

Noibody admires Gar more than I. Still, in the early days of the team's offensive turnaround I found myself among those who say "show me over time" regarding the enduring value of Edgar's contributions as a hitting coach. Alas, the team's turnaround did continue into September. One aspect of "show me over time" is show me over a month or two when you're not out of the playoff chase, when the pressure's on. Nobody will be more pleased than I if my skepticism proves unfounded. I'm not skeptical of Edgar, just the long-term effect of a hitting coach.

But I am also a believer in personal forces as a significant factor in team success. So I'm definitely open to Edgar not only as a technician but as a personal force, a confidence builder, an infectious mentality that comes from proven success. Part of what could sustain what Edgar helped build in 2015 would be an equally helpful supporting culture from the entire organization. No doubt JeDi wants to bring this. We'll just have to see if what he (JeDi) produces is in line with what he says he wants to do.

Thanks for the article, Doc.

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That's kinda the nature of SPORTS.  If Pete Carroll starts going 3-and-13 every year, he's gone.

Agreed that the good September sort of tipped the scale in favor of Edgar's impact, but the scale's still bouncing and jittering around.  Another test will come when games actually matter.  Absolutely.

And we have middle ground that we all believe in "attitude" do SOME degree or other.  Question is how much it matters.  ... On Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, I share your "show me" perspective DaddyO.  :- )

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Where are you on LoMo himself for 2016?

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Re: LoMo, I have mixed feelings.

I LOVED his glove work.

And he IS quirky, with the whole "arrow" thing with the departed Fernando Rodney. I can't put my finger on it, but I have a visceral reaction against his personality that's totally unfair to him, It puzzles me, because in general I love fun-loving players.

As a hitter, I found him totally frustrating. He was a streaky player who would get hot for awhile, but he was so rarely "on" so often "broken" that on balance I didn't like him offensively. I suppose we can posit that Edgar might be able to work wonders with him, but if I'm building a team I don't count on it.

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