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Imagine Jack Z vs. Pete Carroll in a face-off showdown. Who would win? I guess it depends on the venue. There's a POTD I'd like to see.
The John Madden Raiders
Make 'em Bleed
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Imagine if you gave up watching baseball right now. How much would you know about it, 20 years on? When your son said "Hey Dad, what do you think about this new lefty closer who throws 88 miles an hour?"
You'd be a little out of date as to the current players. And you'd have missed the latest developments as to whether UZR is reliable or not. But you'd still know an Erasmo Ramirez starter's rhythm from a max-effort Charlie Furbush relief motion.
:- ) Dr. D didn't exactly give up football 20 years ago, but it's been a pretty casual thing. In the 70's and 80's, though, he was pretty saber about it. 100's or even 1000's of Strat-O-Matic games, bought all the stuff out then such as "NFL Playbook" from the NFL, read pretty much everything in the bookstores.
You going to remember the Felix Mariners and Jered Weaver Angels? That's me and the Dave Krieg Seahawks and the John Madden Raiders.
The John Madden Raiders did not always win the Super Bowl, but they were ALWAYS the team that everybody hated to play. Back then there were five or six physically nasty clubs, clubs that would try to inflict injuries if they could -- ssssshhhhhh, the fans aren't supposed to acknowledge that. Back then it was the Raiders, Steelers, Bears, Cowboys, and one or two others; now there are more like twelve or fifteen. The NFL has gotten more vicious since I was a kid, and John Madden's Raiders set the trend.
I don't believe that before the Madden Raiders, there were actually any teams that set out before the game, on a weekly basis, with the intention of removing your will to compete --- > through physical punishment.
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=== Make 'Em Bleed ===
A coupla weeks ago, don't even remember when it was now -- Arizona? -- the Seahawks pulled a fake punt while up by 50-odd points. The media was aghast. After the game Carroll made noises like it was an automatic call that he forgot to remove. I got a bridge in Joisey to sell you, kid.
In baseball it's very important not to gloat or to rub it in -- the tension is high, beanball wars are dangerous, and there's not much release of tension available. In basketball there are also unwritten rules. Keep your elbows down or there will be escalation and it's going to end with Kermit Washington killing Rudy Tomjanovich (google it).
In the NFL, though, there is release of tension every play. The only real rule is that you don't let the outsiders (media and fans) in on the dirty laundry. And, of course, if you're going to take out an ACL with a chop block, you're going to get it back.
Carroll's fake punt didn't have as much effect on the Cardinals (?) as such a play would have in the NBA, much less in MLB. The key thing here is that Carroll has willing to have the favor returned next time, and there will be a next time....
He IS willing. That's the thing. That's why Dr. D did not object to the fake punt. If you want to throw your side kick knee-high, just don't whine when I do the same. Then we're good. Carroll doesn't whine.
The 1970's Raiders were no quarter asked and none given. That sounds like a cliche, but it's not. Most NFL teams are NOT no-holds-barred; there's a certain restraint there, a certain professional respect. The Chuck Knox teams were men with a capital M, but they believed in professional respect. John Madden did not. Pete Carroll does not.
The 1970's Raiders, and now the Carroll Seahawks, had a Cellblock D, Crips and Bloods relationship with their enemies. When they were up 30 points, they wanted to be up 40, and they wanted two more of your players in the hospital. They had ugly attitudes.
Pete Carroll has that schmoozing made-for-TV personality, and fans buy in. But the dude is a land shark. Within the context of the football battle, he is a mean person, and that's by NFL standards.
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Comments
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But the 400th: Carroll.
Zdurienik might chew nails as tough as some NFL coaches do, and that's saying a lot. And we recognize that Jay-Z's natural Lombardi tone has to be veneered for the baseball-suit world he lives in.
But Pete Carroll is a strange individual. He'd shiv Lombardi and then tell you that he meant to help him with a loose button. When does James Woods star in the movie?!
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... was perpetrated against Buffalo, a team we may not play again for years
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Diggin the grass team angle Doc.
I love smashmouth football teams. Big, testosterone laden, knock you down and take your lunch money teams. I might be weird but I also like finesse teams if they are built with overwhelming elite players at the skill positions. The Greatest Show on turf was fun to watch. The Cardinals super bowl run with Warner and Fitzgerald was fun to watch. A run and shoot offense if it has world class speed at the receiving corps gets me warm and fuzzy. However, I despise the teams that fall in between. Teams that try to bully without the beef to back it up or teams that try to finesse without the scary talent to make it work under any circumstances and a killer instinct to bury opponents at the first chance.
The Holmgren era Seahawks were the latter for me. Lesser teams could hang around with them. They were a finesse team without any of the skill players being the very best in their position league wide. They were solid and talented but no single piece was scary in and of themselves. Maybe Alexander was but I always suspected he was a product of his O line.
Team mentality is built top down. This team is a reflection of Carroll’s mindset. Something that goes hand in hand with the grass team mentality is killer instinct. Pete Carroll has killer instinct and now the team is starting to show it. The Seahawks haven’t had that since… well, forever.
The Seahawks under Holmgren were absolutely unwatchable to me when they had a fourth quarter lead. Even when they were good I just couldn’t take it. Mike never wavered in his belief that he had more talent between his ears than his entire team had on the field so when he got to the fourth quarter with a lead he would massively over manage the clock. I’m not talking about at the two-minute warning, or even 7-8 minutes out; I’m talking about the start of the fourth quarter. Scoring became secondary to killing the clock. He had built a nice West Coast offense but with a fourth quarter lead he’d trot out Vince Lombardi’s playbook.
The problem is that the west coast offense is not built to grind out the clock. It’s designed to nibble at the seams not pound off tackle. Holmgren somehow thought that his running backs could channel their inner John Riggins and go on a 25-minute 150-yard ground drive. With a lead, he refused to throw in the fourth quarter. Visions of dropped balls and pick sixes danced in his brilliant mind and he tried to will the clock to zero. The Holmgren Seahawks never buried teams in the fourth quarter. The whole team absorbed that mindset. Their eyes were constantly on the clock, not the endzone. It drove me NUTS!
We finally have a coach who understands that when you’re up by less than two scores, a touchdown is more important than thirty more seconds off the clock, and when your opponent still has a glimmer of hope you need to step on his neck! This team, offense defense and special teams, all drool for the endzone, right to the final whistle.
This team knows how to bury opponents. It has killer instinct.
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Right, by then it will be a nonissue.
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When he and Walter Jones hit their apex .... they added one "hit man" offensive lineman to that, a Conrad Dobler type. I forget who he was - am I thinking of Tobeck?
Those two or three players, for a brief shining moment, legitimized the Seahawks' back-alley aspect. Then you pulled Hutch out of there and the entire team persona went to pot.
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The Madden Raiders, you coulda taken Tatum or Atkinson or Matuszak or whoever off the field, and they'd still have been the Raiders. Take Lynch and Sherman off this ballclub and they're still a bunch of gangbangers.
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Great post Auto5.
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In stealing Hutch the Vikings walked away holding the thread that unraveled our sweater.
Jones was the talent and Hutch and Tobeck were the snarl. I still think teams get there identity from the top down and Mike Holmgren was a conservative gentlemen. That O line group was studly but they didn't sap the will to win out of their adversaries. Like the rest of the team they reflected the gentleman who was their coach.
After Walter made a crater with your body he wouldn't spit in your eye, he'd offer you a hand up. He'd frustrate and outplay his man but he wasn't mean. He opened nice holes Alexander would slither through, angle his shoulders and fall forward for nice yardage. For a probowl back Alexander was soft, a nice guy. Hasselbeck? Not a tough guy. Jackson and Engram? Not scary. Even Mack Strong, a very underrated talent, just wasn't a mean guy. They didn't intimidate or scare anyone, they just out executed.
And that's okay if you have the talent. The Tony Dungy Colts were a finesse team that had the identity of their gentleman head coach. The difference is that if you fell down in the first quarter you'd never catch them. They had the talent to just run away from you if you didn't keep up. Everyone in the NW waxes on about how great that 05 team was but they always frustrated me because I didn't believe in their identity. They didn't physically crush teams and they didn't have the talent to run away and hide. To win a super bowl you'd better do one or the other. If you could hang around with the Seahawks, the conservative play calling would let you back in it and your team would likely still have the gas and the will to do it.
Now, this team here? It has an identity that I can believe in.