I think Lee is at the high end of performance for that family. As long as his arm doesn't give out from the workload (and I don't see why it would...he was always an innings eater other than 2007 and that injury was unrelated to his pitching form).
I think you can pocket the 450-480 innings from King Felix and Cliff Lee...and since my goal was to get 1000 innings from my starting rotation, we need 520-550 more out of four pitchers (RRS, Morrow, Fister, Snell). I think we can manage that.
=== Baseball-Reference.com Comps ===
If you look up the guys that B-Ref.com has as comps for Lee, they're not much use. The list of 10 has an aggregate ERA+ of 105, because James' formula uses career totals. Cliff Lee, of course, was one pitcher before 2008, and another pitcher after 2008.
John Burkett, Kirk Reuter and Charles Nagy are in there because they didn't walk many guys. But as you can see, "doesn't walk many guys" is not a defining characteristic of a pitcher family.
Let's assume, for a moment, that the Cliff Lee of 2008-09 is the Real Cliff Lee. He did throw 300 innings last year, including spring training, so it's not going to be a shock if he feels the usage in 2010. But that's about the only quibble you could come up with.
The way that Lee pitches is very repeatable. He's 30; he has mastered his mechanics; there's nothing about his game that depends on a phase-in, phase-out feel for the baseball on a given night.
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=== Defining Characteristics ===
James broke down pitchers into "families" so that he could identify useful similarities between pitchers.
His "picture-perfect" family was for righties -- Bunning, Saberhagen, Sutton, and guys like that are in it. These were guys who did not have huge fastballs, but had several plus pitches, plus command, plus everything...
"You watch them on a good night and you think, I don't know how this pokey ever loses. But they do lose, because they're always around the plate" and so usually give up their share of HR's.
Notice that Lee, before 2008, gave up 1.5 homers a game and few walks. Lee, after 2008, gave up 0.5 homers a game and few walks.
.............
Anyway, LaMarr Hoyt isn't a comp for Cliff Lee. A comp for Lee 2008-09 would be this guy:
- Left-handed
- Average-solid fastball: 88 > FB > 94
- Great change-speed game and pitchability
- Tremendous command: 2.5 > BB
- Nice but not overwhelming K's: 6.0 > K > 8.5
(All numbers would need to be adjusted for era. They didn't strike out 9 guys a game in the 1950's.)
Take out any one of the above 5 characteristics and jemanji utterly rejects the pitcher as a comp.
Obviously soft-tossers like Jamie Moyer and Mark Beuhrle are a different kind of pitcher than Lee is.
Similarly, Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax and Lefty Grove might have the same 4:1, 5:1 control ratios, but they are not getting hitters out the same way. For this reason I would throw out Mark Mulder, though that's arguable.
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=== Top Ten Comps List ===
So departing from the PECOTA and B-REF.com auto-generated comps, here is a Seattle Sports Insider list of Cliff Lee comps. They would be used the same way: you would plot career arcs with them, identify their best contexts, etc.
Following are most of the guys who qualify as post-1970, Picture-Perfect Lefties in the Cliff Lee mold:
Johann Santana (last coupla years, with less steam in his arm)
Greg Swindell, an underrated pitcher who came up with the sad-sack Indians
David Wells up until about 2002
John Candelaria, who pitched before the offensive explosion
John Smiley, a half-notch inferior to most guys on this list, but a bit scary...
Teddy Higuera, a small notch more of a power pitcher than others here
Sid Fernandez, definitely more of a power pitcher, but has the great CTL
Denny Neagle, a beautiful comp, and the only comp b-ref.com got right (and #1 on their list)
Jon Matlack, who was Tom Seaver's #2, so particularly apropos w/r/t Felix
Andy Pettite, yet another 91 mph Picture-Perfect Lefty
If we were going to throw somebody out, it would be El Sid, who used two pitches and had an unfair slider, as well as too many K's. El Sid is more in the Koufax/Johnson family. But then we wouldn't have 10. :- ) And besides, El Sid got it done with a 90-92 fastball.
So there are ten pitchers who are pretty fair stylistic comps to Cliff Lee. We're going to be a lot better off working with an edited list than with one generated by computer.
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Comments
mull over the disconnect between Lee's 130-160 ERA+'s and the 110-115's scored by that family in general.
You put your finger right on the first big question there...
In fact, we solicit suggestions to create a 12- or 20-man comp list ... perhaps to replace El Sid, maybe Candelaria or Higuera...
No list is perfect, of course, because there weren't ten Cliff Lees in baseball history. There's been one. But this list, we daresay, is a little better than one that includes Kirk Reuter :- )
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I scoured a long list of LHP's with great CTL ratios and went way down to 2:1, so if there are many comps we missed, we'd be surprised.
But would love to be surprised. No 95 mph fastballs, now.
The young Barry Zito was considered. Two pitches, slower FB, but still... ya think?
...much the same way you worry about Lee.
You make an interesting point re: injuries on these guys. Andy Pettitte avoided such problems, so it didn't happen to EVERYone...but still...that's a little sobering.
In his first 3-4 years was one of the best couple of pitchers in the AL. He dropped way off at about 25.
That's a second variation on the overuse syndrome: maybe you don't get hurt, but you do lose the crisp fastball and have to trick them from then on.
Notice Pettitte's huge year in his 30's, following his half-season off...
We comp'ed RRS to Pettitte last year...does he have that ability to suddenly refine his command an dturn from an interesting #3 to a 1b?
He has the template for it...
Bill James sorts out pitchers in this family by judging their physical gracefulness. He thinks that the Moyers and Lees of the game have an almost ballet-like quality to their motions.
RRS seems more muscular and powerful to me, to be able to develop that sort of hair-fine command... I'm just thinking out loud.
Interesting.
Pettitt'es DNRA+ line:
Year Lg Team Outs DNRA+ Marker
1995 AL NYA 518 106 3.52
1996 AL NYA 663 125 9.28
1997 AL NYA 729 157 18.34
1998 AL NYA 631 101 3.20
1999 AL NYA 595 90 0.83
2000 AL NYA 624 118 7.14
2001 AL NYA 611 127 8.71
2002 AL NYA 413 141 8.05
2003 AL NYA 638 123 8.25
2004 NL HOU 254 133 4.11
2005 NL HOU 656 147 13.72
2006 NL HOU 650 119 7.22
2207 AL NYA 661 120 7.79
2008 AL NYA 612 124 8.04
2009 AL NYA 584 100 2.97
It looks to me like Pettitte was overused in 1997, got very tired for two years...but then gradually came all the way back and sustained his success for a long while.
'cause that's eggZACKly what occurred :- )
He doesn't seem that muscular too me...but he definitely doesn't land like a butterfly. :)
...it's not like overuse doomed Pettitte to never being the same and forever after resorting to tricking the hitter. It screwed him up for two years...
Not that that helps us...if Lee is overused, the Mariners aren't going to benefit from having him.
That was good
Once burned out, it's a constant see-saw battle between the pitcher and the dead arm from then arm. The pitcher might get the upper hand, to greater or lesser degree, or might never get all the juice back, or might snap a tendon...
Pettitte illustrates the see-saw nature of the battle for a fresh arm...
Cliff Lee is now a M.