Aircraft Carriers and 300-Game Winners
When you want to project power, go with Tom Seaver in Game One

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Feb. 7th Tomorrow's News Today Update:  Nightengale says 7 years, $175M.  

Dr. D bracketed the extension at 5/$125M if Felix was feeling like Abraham Lincoln, or 7/$200M if he was feeling a little more assertive.  In either case, he's worth far more.

At 7/$175M, the Mariners get a pretty screamin' deal on the salary -- nine years from now, $25M per year for Christy Mathewson will be wayyyyyyy low.  Felix did get the more years rather than the fewer, but then again, it's hard to speak of it as a loss for fans, that Felix is positioned to go into the HOF in an M's cap.  Put that in your pipe and smoke it, ARod.

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Edit again to say, the 7 years *replaces* his current deal, so we're at what, 5 years, $135M.  Yowza.

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=== Talking Points ===

Dr. D has, for some reason that he cannot begin to comprehend, never gotten emotionally attached to Felix.  Nobody in Seattle likes Felix any less than Dr. D does.  That means for me, on a scale of 1-10, Felix rates about a 6 or 7 on the Likeliest To Own Some Dude's Jersey meter.  I bought jerseys for Jack Wilshere and Santi Cazorla; I won't get Felix'.  I enjoy watching Wilshere and Cazorla perform more than I do Felix, and I'm a pretty casual soccer fan.

I have no idea why.  Felix is one of the most likeable athletes you'll ever see.  His game, the five pretzel pitches he throws, is very enjoyable to watch.  He's been ours since he was 16.  Explain to me why I could take him or leave him, somebody.

Point is, I'm not biased in his favor.  Not at all.  If we traded him for Giancarlo Stanton, even steven, I'd be pleased.

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With Stars & Scrubs, you save money on Scrubs SO THAT you can buy Stars at fair-market prices.

A rotisserie champion saves a buck here, a buck there, SO THAT he can have five Felices going against his opponent's four.  

Point is, whatever Felix costs, $25 mill, $30 mill, $35 mill (because of inflation), just pay it.  The rest of your decisions are made AROUND that.  Felix' salary is the given in this roster equation, you feel me?  Move on.  Wrestle with other problems after you put that one in the bank.

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The Mariners just offered Josh Hamilton $25M x 4 years.  Josh Hamilton's value, compared to Felix', is absolutely laughable.  To the Mariners especially!

Felix' value to the Mariners is logically, inescapably, far in excess of $25M and far in excess of 4 years' term.

Years don't matter to the fan or the club here; they only matter to the player.  If Felix is healthy in five years, he's going to re-up anyway.  A million here, a million there, the cost savings in Year 6 is not significant when compared to the overshadowing factor of an injury that makes the entire contract an albatross.

Point is, the Mariners need to (half-heartedly) hold Felix' requests to the minimum possible, and then they need to just pay it.  You as a Mariner fan are (half-heartedly) wanting to hear that the Mariners paid fewer years, and fewer dollars, as opposed to more years and more dollars.  If Felix were to take a 3-year extension, that's the announcement that would be the best-case for you as a fan.  He'll sign another one after that.

Every indication is that Felix won't exploit his value to the full.  You're not talking about a Scott Boras situation here.  Whew.

So you as the discerning SSI consumer can relax and wait for the 5-years-vs-7-years announcement.  If you hear that Felix took 5 years and $125M, you won big.  If you hear that it took 7 years and $200M, shrug, see previous talking point, you win not so big.  You hear anything other than Felix extension, you lose, but that's not likely enough to even worry about.  

You hear Felix for Stanton and three prospects, you also win... wait, that's me, not you.  :- )

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All aircraft carrier SP's -- Verlander, Sabathia, etc -- pose a health risk.  But contenders have them.  You don't get to bring knives to gunfights, not unless you want your 95-loss entrails all over your shoes.

The Felixes, and Sabathias, and Verlanders, the big bubbas with easy velocity and sky-high K rates, pose less health risk than other pitchers do.  James proved a long time ago that as K rates go up, DL rates go down.

BaseballHQ wrung its hands a little this year over Felix' loss of velocity.  What they overlooked is that, with Felix' pretzel pitches, he's an ace whatever his velocity.  He proved that last year.  

The point is, Felix is very safe, relative to other SP's such as Jered Weaver, Danny Haren, Cliff Lee, Tim Lincecum*, Gio Gonazlez, etc.  He's a big hoss who doesn't even need the hossiness to win Cy Youngs.  The hossiness is just buffer territory between him and the danger zone.

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One of Dr. D's most sour sports memories, the Mariners flatly turning down Randy Johnson's request for 3 years, $27M.  And Dr. D missed out on his rightful place in the third deck, spectating the career of one of baseball's twenty greatest all-time legends.

It was the local version of Boston's sale of Babe Ruth in 1919.  And it can realistically be compared to even that tragedy; Johnson was as great a figure in modern baseball as any Babe Ruth could ever be in today's game.

Whatever you do can get you killed, including AND ESPECIALLY being too chickenfeathers.  But obviously the Mariners are not going to repeat this mistake.

Point is, you've got a 300-game winner here, the decade's version of Roger Clemens and Tom Seaver.  Those guys weren't any better than Felix. 

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Most great pitchers really feed off one or two pitches that are truly scary.  Pedro Martinez had three of them.

Felix legitimately has four; this is almost unique in baseball history.  You could not tell me whether Felix' 89 dry spitter is more deadly than his 83 yellow hammer than his 86 vertical "slider."  (The other historical pitcher who comes to mind is a contemporary, Justin Verlander.)

And last year he introduced a pitch that could be worse than any of them:  the Mariano Rivera cut fastball.

Point is, Felix is authentically a historically-great pitcher, and will be great going forward.  When he throws a perfect game, it's not about luck.  It's about a slaughter going on out there.  

Like Pedro, Felix doesn't walk anybody if he chooses not to ... maybe he will throw six perfect games.  ::shrug::  What are your odds on his throwing one in 2013?

............

There is nothing in Major League Baseball that is more deliciously Stars and Scrubs than the aircraft-carrier Opening Day Starter.  For me that's the most important, and hardest to get, piece of a baseball dynasty.  Felix Hernandez is the baseball version of Russell Wilson.

Remember back when the Mariners could go toe-to-toe with contenders?  Lou Piniella would schedule his rotations so that Randy Johnson could start series, especially on the road.  If the Mariners are ever going bare-knuckle again, Felix Hernandez will be there to give us dominance in many, many Big Weekend Series.

I forget.  Did Felix win four 1-0 games last year?  Like against NYY, Bos, and Tex, and including the perfecto?

Jack Zduriencik has been 100% decisive from day one.  Felix isn't going to be cashed in; he's going to be the pitcher the Mariners build around.  You can be sure that they understand the fact that they have to give Felix what he wants, so polish up your Felix dance.

Point is, we got the #1 SP, the monster righty who gets you 17-20 wins in March.  Let's get goin' on the rest of the travelin' squad.

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Comments

1
M-Pops's picture

One lesson that I think the M's ownership has learned is just how valuable having a HOF franchise player really is.
We/they were spoiled in the late '90's with having our pick of 4 Franchise players.
Now, without Ichiro, I think the M's greatly appreciate a guy around whom they can market and sel tickets.
Felix will have the M's coming back for extensions until someone else emerges as the face of the franchise.
And talk about a high bar - HOF with a compelling personality. Griffey, Ichiro, and Felix. I tend to think that the next guy in line to be passed the mantle is not yet in the org.

2

Just pay it. Then smile. Look at it this way. Here's a quintet of RH power pitching HOF'ers, and their career ERA+: Jim Bunning (115), Don Drysdale (121), Rapid Robt. Feller (122), Juan Marichal (123) and Tom Terrific (127).
Felix? Uh...127, as it works out. Rarified air, even for HOF types. My goodness, he threw 232 innings with a 3.02 ERA last year....and you might argue it was a DOWN year.
BTW, he L-O-V-E-S the franchise.
Fork over the extension. Smile....widely.
moe

3

That's insanity. He is only 26. That puts him 53rd all time in ERA+. He's #4 in active ERA. I think he's just hitting his stride. In his short career so far, tempered by a somewhat slow assent he's already ranked #27 all time in career k/9 @ 8.259, #38in SO/BB @ 3.098, 65th in WPA+ just ahead of Early Wynn #191 in strikeouts already...he's 26. Holy crap, are we underrating him?
I hadn't looked at his career stats in awhile, nor career rankings. Last year he dropped his HR/9 to a league leading 0.543 in helping him go from a career high 1 shutout to 5 shutouts. He's still improving. What is a ceiling for him? No such thing? Best all time RHP? Best all time pitcher?
I don't care what they sign him for as long as they extend him. Again. And again.

4
ghost's picture

I do not see Felix ever blowing the roof off the sucker like Pedro Martinez did for a few years there or like Greg Maddux did in the mid 90s or like Rocket Roger did in his prime...but a Tom Seaver career might actually be underselling King Felix. He's still improving the break and deception on all of his breaking pitches. His biggest problem right now is that he gets too cute sometimes and seems to enjoy the battle of a long at bat so he isn't as efficient a killing machine as you'd like. But with his bull-strong body, he can throw 130-140 pitches once in a while and get away with it...so that gets hidden.
If he learns to love killing people in three pitches instead of 7...he could still jump one more plateau.
Agreed with the thread-starter...I don't care what it costs...sign him. GIve him whatever the heck he wants if it's even REMOTELY reasonable. The club will never again be taken seriously in the industry if they let him go.

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Yeah, so far he hasn't put the mental aspect together. But he's 26. To say that he can't seems impossible to back. Stating that he could is admitting a possibility that does exist. Anything talent wise, repertoire or ability that Pedro just had far and away ahead?
It's kind of academic though. Arguing how ridiculously good he will be in the near future. he will be ridiculously good, surpassing Pedro or not.
Pedro had his first Cy quality season at 25, his first in the AL at 27. Felix had 2 in the AL before he was 25. Grienke was just better in Felix's better of those 2 years. Pedro at the same age was somewhat better than Felix has been so far, but Felix has had a slower ascent. I'm not saying he will have a peak like Pedro or better, but I can say his repertoire is probably better and that's it's possible for him to get his focus and understanding to the level that allows it.

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I can see Felix about to start a run like Marichal's (From '62-'69: 18-11, 25-8, 21-8, 22-13, 25-6, 14-10, 26-9, and 21-11), with a few less starts per year, but that kind of win % (~.700). Marichal had 83 wins starting his age 27 season, Felix has 98 (albeit Felix started younger, but Marichal was one of the early Latin players). In any case, Felix is at the age and skill level to run off a string of dominating years. Marichal was never THE best pitcher in baseball (Koufax was over most of that period), but he was the Energizer Bunny - he just kept going and going ... and winning. I see the same type of pitcher in Felix - multiple pitches with movement, great desire, optimistic attitude, and a physical horse.
So, to the question. SIGN HIM. Give him a contract that Boras will use as a baseline to screw other clubs. Give him 7 years with the extended ones at more than any other pitcher makes. If that is $190 million, so be it, he will make the Mariners at least that the day they sign a broadcast deal. For the media, a headline is essential. How about "Can Felix win 27 in a 5-man rotation?" as Root Sports' starting point each year?

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ghost's picture

I'm saying I currently find it hard to imagine he blows up like Pedro did because I don't see him showing any signs of changing his attitude about how to detonate hitters. He found the Rivera cutter and his K rate went up...for a little while. He needs to demonstrate a long run of 10 K dominance to convince me that he's going to start attacking hitters with the desire to see them utterly humiliated...that is what is necessary for him to be Pedro's superior or equal. But that doesn't mean I don't think it's POSSIBLE>..I just don't see it happening for now because his personality is not the same death-on-a-stick stuff that Pedro had...he doesn't go head-hunting...he doesn't want to hear the cries and lamentations of the other teams' women (Conan reference!)
He just wants to be cute and throw a five-pitch game that doesn't bore him and that gets wins.

8

That is a big part of it. Focus at times has seemed questionable to me in comparison. Pedro seems like the pinnacle of that though.
I wonder if the catchers have been as poor game callers as some suggest. If Zunino understands some of that could he potentially help propel Felix to that level? Could having an actual MLB offense behind him help his game? Did the perfect game make him hungrier for perfection? Again, he went from having 1 shutout per season to having 5 shutouts in 2012. Other than that, his age 23-26 seasons are pretty similar, not really showing improvement statistically.
Either way I'd think it's going to take determination from Felix to really step forward. I don't think from Felix now to Pedro's peak is a small step, but I do think his ceiling is still in that neighborhood. I'm happy with Felix the way he's been too, it's not like he has to improve at all to be worth top dollar + to the Mariners. The possibility just makes it even easier to be happy with guaranteeing that much money.
Is that attitude being a part of his personality a necessity? I'd think it's just got to be added to his mound persona.

9

Look around the league and try to find comparable replacements for King Felix, in terms of track record, age, health history, makeup, etc. Kershaw's definitely there. I personally prefer Felix but can understand Verlander or Price. Strasburg's got significantly greater injury concerns, Lincecum was just lit up this past season. You could make a case for Weaver or Cain. Maybe a couple others I'm forgetting. Only a handful of pitchers, and just try and imagine the cost to acquire one of them, if it were even possible. The only way to define Felix's value is with a blank check.
When you're lucky enough to have an arm like that - let alone one who's eager to stick around - you don't let them sneak away. Felix's willingness to stay might be the most important factor in this equation. Don't know whether it's the travel, the weather, the divisional competition, the ownership, memory of the RJ/Griffey/ARod fiasco - for whatever reason, stars are extremely opposed to coming here. If the M's let Felix walk, it only reinforces this notion. If they resign him, it sends a message. Felix could easily choose to be one of the most recognizable stars in the game. If he signed with the Yankees, he'd be a celebrity even outside the game. If he signed with the Nationals, he could take them to potentially historic levels. He could choose just about any team in baseball and everyone knows it. A big Felix extension would declare that players who've actually played here DO like Seattle and there IS a reason to sign with the M's.
.....And if he gets ichiroed out of town, I think that just sets them up for another decade at the top of no trade lists.

10

After living in Groton, almost exactly halfway between NY and Boston on I-95, I can tell you that anyone who consistently beats the Yankees or Sox in their own ballpark is a MAJOR celebrity, at least for an ephemeral period. The TV sports, radio, and papers (especially NY) are filled with "why can't the chokers beat this guy" and " why can't we buy him for the Yanks". Felix IS a celebrity in NY, and I'm just waiting for the day he throws a no-no at the Yanks. Apoplexy at the Post! He's come close several times, but it would please me to no end to have the Ms sign him to an extension and then do it to the Yanks in front of a packed house. Holy Cow!
What kind of contract would be appropriate for Felix? To beat Greinke, who will make $26m in 2014-16-18 and $25m in 2015-17 (which beat Sabathia, who makes $23m in 2013-14-15 and $25m in 2016-17), the Ms would have to pay at least $26m. If we say $26.5m x 5 years on top of the $39.5 already owed, we get 7/$172m - about what was reportedly offered A-Rod in total dollars in 2001, and very comparable to the 6/$150 reportedly offered to Hamilton; i.e., the Ms can afford it easily. Looked at another way, it would be ~ 6% of a $3 billion dollar media deal, which may be valued partly on the Ms appeal - which Felix enhances. That's not a blank check; it's a justifiable business expense for the Ms.
I think the Mariners ought to sign him to a $180m contract for the next 7 years (keeping the existing $39.5m for 2013-14, then extending at $26.5m/yr, increasing at $.5m/yr each year, (= $177m), a $3m signing bonus (effectively making 2013-14 a bit higher) and then incentives for IP, awards,etc., but deferral provisions for any year with more than x days on the DL. (deferrals would lower the current dollar cost those years, but still meet the CBA rules). Felix wants to provide for his family; we want the Ms to win and to enjoy going to meaningful games. Although the numbers are astronomical to us, in the grand scheme of things he seems to me to be worth 1/16 of what I pay to watch the Ms broadcasts.

11
GLS's picture

...but can you really build around a pitcher? What if his velocity keeps going down and all of a sudden he's 30 years old and his fastball averages 89 and tops out at 92 and he starts missing 4-5 games annually to injuries? What do you do if that starts happening and you're also paying him $26mil/year?

12

As you can see from this velo chart ... yet in April 2012, he ran a 2.23 ERA based on 42 K, 12 BB and only 2 HR in 44 innings.
Strange, but Felix has auditioned the age-35 version of himself already, and it was sweet to behold.  The guy is like something out of a movie...

13
misterjonez's picture

with his FB velocity down in the mid 80's? Felix IS Pedro without the string of 1.-- ERA's. Ridiculous arsenal with a mature, surgical approach where the game never leaves his control for an instant.
Felix is the only ace I WOULD feel good about giving a ten year contract.

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