Taijuan Walker - knocking on the door already

He's only thrown in Low A. He's just 19 years old and has barely a hundred innings of post-HS live pitching. You would think he could use some AA time at least, where opposing batters have a better idea of what to do with offspeed stuff. Maybe even AAA - after all, Felix got AAA time and he had 3x as many pro innings pitched as Taijuan.

But the eyes that should know think he may not take all that long:

Dustin Ackley, after facing him live, says,

"He looks great. Great fastball, great life on his fastball, and it looks like he has a good feeling for his off-speed, especially for a kid that young. It seems like he's all the way...I mean, he's close to ready, it looks like.

"You see that kind of stuff in the big leagues right now. I don't know how far along he is in game-like situations, but just seeing him on the back fields, he looks like he has the stuff, and he's only going to get better. It's pretty scary to think about."

Another opinion? Brendan Ryan.

"Very fluid, very easy - effortless. The ball comes out hot. He's got some good tilt on the breaking ball, and I like the changeup. It's hard to distinguish. It comes out the same slot as the fastball, and it just kind of bleeds down a little bit. If it was going left or right, you could maybe distinguish it closer to him, but it just comes out the same and fades a little bit. Pretty deceptive.

"He's pretty far ahead of the game. The talent's there, obviously. It's just fine-tuning it and making sure the control is there, maybe learn a cutter or something. If the control's there, I'm sure he could compete (in the major leagues) right now. You could tell he's an athlete, too. I see him taking PFPs (pitchers fielding practice), and I see somebody athletic fielding a ground ball. Sky's the limit, it looks like."

And then there are the Bob Gibson comparisons that should buckle your knees.

“Taijuan listens, picks things up fast. You can show him a pitch in the bullpen and two days later he can take that into a game.” Dorman paused, shook his head. “I’ve heard scouts compare him to Bob Gibson,” he said. “That’s special.”

Dorman, some of you may recall, had a hellacious curveball that he could not properly control. As a pitching coach, what is he doing?

“Last year Rich Dorman helped me throw a curve. It was really frustrating, and I was begging him, ‘Let me throw a slider, I threw one in high school,’ ” Walker said.
“Rich told me to stay with it, that I’d get it and eventually I did. Now I’m working on a change-up, and it’s a tough pitch to learn, too.”

So tough to learn that a few months later he's throwing a major-league quality one. For a guy who picks stuff up in a couple of days, I guess that probably feels like a long time. And right now they're protecting his arm by not allowing him to throw the slider, a la Felix. So he'll be a 4 pitch pitcher in his 20s, not a 2 pitch one.

Taijuan should be in AA this year. He might get a September callup if all goes well (after hopping to AAA for a closer look) and then be competing for that rotation slot in next Spring Training. First he has to get by some folks who can hit his changeup. Although according to Ryan and Ackley, those hitters might not be easy to find.

With health, our rotation options still look remarkable, even if we're missing Pineda AND Campos. Hultzen, Paxton and Walker are monsters.

Comments

Bob Gibson?

Bob Gibson? Bob Gibson? Wow.

Bob Gibson?

I wonder if the Ms will let him play with the Globetrotters next off-season :-)

That was my reaction

But it does fit. Incredible athlete (Gibson played B-Ball with the Globetrotters), serious fastball heat, great breaker, dangerous. I've also heard that he's got a great competitive spirit and works HARD.

Now, nobody had a better, um, competitive spirit than Gibson. Or at least as his peers tell it.

Dusty Baker: "(Hank Aaron told me) 'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson, he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, '****, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."

The stories about Gibson are great, but I never saw him pitch. Well before my time. If anybody, like say Doc or Grizz, wants to chime in on the Gibson factor as it relates to Taijuan Walker, I'd love to hear it.

But when an old-time scout (because nobody new is calling up a Gibby reference) looks at Taijuan and says "Bob Gibson" it gets me out of my chair. That's as no-nonsense a comparison as you can make, because Gibson's name stands for something, and you don't burn cred on a HOF comparison and the guy who caused the mound to be lowered just to pull a name out of thin air.

Props again to our area scout John Ramey who saw through the inconsistency and problems repeating that Walker was having in HS (since he'd barely pitched) and said, "that's the guy."

I wonder if he used the Gibson reference too.

Yeah - little before my time

Yeah - little before my time too but I've loved the guy from the first time I saw the Burns baseball special. I love the "dominant intimidator on the mound" type. Randy Johnson was like that.

Gibson once hit Ron Fairly for complimenting him on his stuff. LOL. I heard Joe Torre tell the story on the radio once - hilarious. Fairly was 2 for 2 off Gibson and up to bat, gets in the box, takes one look at Gibson, steps out of the box and says to Torre (who was catching), "I'm not going to like this, am I?" Torre just smiles. First pitch, right to the ribs.

I don't see that meanness in Walker but I guess there is something there. Like you say, that's just not a comparison that gets thrown around.

Interesting: Gibson wasn't Gooden

Didn't make the majors until 23, wasn't all that special at first and didn't start looking like a superstar until around 26-28.

Gibby gave up 119 walks and 43 doubles at age 25, and had a 1.44 WHIP (though he still managed a 3.24 ERA). It was ages 28-37 that he had his period of extended domination, with the epic 1.12 ERA season at age 32.

FWIW. I would have assumed better numbers right out of the box, but that wasn't the case.

ahhh ... so he was like ...

Randy Johnson.

Big Unit was wild (barely effective) until age 29. Then he became the pitching gold standard of his era. Not sure if this bodes well for a pitcher named Walker when you only get 3 seasons for free, and 3 at a discount.

gibson

I saw Gibson a lot and he didn't throw a lot of curveballs - mainly fastball, slider and as he memorably put it:

"It was said that I threw, basically, five pitches - fastball, slider, curve, change-up, and knockdown. I don't believe that assessment did me justice, though. I actually used about nine pitches - two different fastballs, two sliders, a curve, a change-up, knockdown, brushback, and hit-batsman."

It was another era, one that won't likely be repeated. So much of Gibson's edge was psycholgical - he was a tough SOB, just steely (despite his high, squeaky voice which I doubt anyone ever had the nerve to mock).

The similarities are in their athleticism although the changes in era are evident in that department, too, but this time in Walker's favor. Gibson was 6-1, well-msucled but lean. Walker has three inches and probably 15 pounds on him so whatever his stuff, it's going to play up.

I'd kill for a Gibson in the system...

As tjm stated, Gibson's edge was psychological, and I love it! From wikipedia on Gibson:

When his catcher Tim McCarver went to the mound for a conference, Gibson brushed him off, saying "The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it."

Gibson maintained his image even into retirement. In 1992, an Old-Timers game was played at Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego as part of the All-Star Game festivities, and Reggie Jackson hit a home run off of Gibson. When the Old-Timers Day game was played in 1993, the 57-year-old Gibson threw the 47-year-old Jackson a brushback pitch. The pitch was not especially fast and did not hit Jackson, but the message was delivered and Jackson did not get a hit.

Too bad we can't have players like that again, and circumstances like that again.

Lonnie

Walker doesn't throw a slider

Only because he's not allowed to. Prevailing thought at the moment is that throwing the slider too young can damage the arm, so you want a lot of innings under your belt before chucking a slider in a significant percentage of pitches.

And while Taijuan isn't likely to have the "knock-down" pitch, he'll have the other 4 types.

As you say, he's bigger than Gibson and throws harder, but Bob's prime was ridonkulous.

Spec,

I don't think I'd look at Gibson and say, "he walked quite a few guys, so he wasn't dominant." Just like I can't look at Bob Gibson's K/9, rate it against today's and say, "eh, not that dominant for a few years." From his first year as a full-time starter he had 13 straight years in the top 10 for K/9. He was also nearly impossible to get a hit against, his real feat. He did give up walks, especially early in his career, but the reason his WHIP was so low is that it was just really hard to put a bat on his pitches - another thing he has in common so far with Walker.

His first couple years were also suppressed by management racism (they wouldn't let him start full-time and told him to quit the sport).

I just don't hear a lot of guys compared to Gibby. It's not a standard comparison. I can show you a half-dozen guys compared to Cliff Lee in the last couple of years. Gibson's not an easy reach.

Gibson

The thing with Gibson, like Drysdale, is that early on hitters did O.K. against them. Then they started getting the brushbacks and knockdowns. From Drysdale, with the sidearm, no RHB would dig in. Gibson developed such incredible control that it didn't matter which side you batted from. But they first had to establish that they could pitch.

I remember news footage of a guy in the early-mid 60s ('64?), after being brushbacked, bunting against Gibson towards first base so Gibby had to cover. The play-by-play guy says it looks like he's trying to get Gibson where he can run into him. Next thing you see is the guy flying into the coaches' box. That alone probably lowered Gibby's ERA, cause no one could ever figure out how to retaliate. Gibson was too good an athlete and could handle close quarters - it was not clear whether he gave him a hip or a elbow/shoulder, but the guy changed direction abruptly.

The athleticism of Gibson was simply amazing. He threw so violently he looked like he'd fall down spinning towards first, but I'll bet he could've beat Adrian Beltre to bunts towards third. I'm told he hated people bunting against him and delighted in cutting the ball off and making bad things happen for the other guys.

As to Walker and the slider - a good tight slider requires a wrist snap from the elbow that is as fast and violent as possible. Many pitchers will vary the "harshness" of the snap to try to get action without as much stress/risk to the elbow. the problem is, if the spin isn't fast enough, the ball looks like a BP fastball - the so-called hanging slider - because the magus effect developed is not enough to take effect in 60 feet. With a curve, since the ball is travelling forward slower, and the spin effect is aided by gravity, less magus force is required to vary the path of the ball; this means the spin put on can be less violent. The snap to provide the curve's spin is also more normal to the action of the arm, so provides less risk. The Mariners are doing him a great service in delaying using the slider. His HS slider probably doesn't break well enough to fool hitters anyway, and tightening it is where the risk is. If he adds a few more pounds and another few MPH, he can get away with a more slurvy one like Pineda's. If he can develop the curve and change first, then he won't have to throw it as often.

I have read that Gibson's right arm sustained enough damage throwing the slider as hard and often as he did that he can't straighten it today and that it is constantly painful.

Size

Remember also in comparing pitchers, that though Walker may be 3" taller, the mound is now 4" lower (and there was always suspicion that the mounds in St. Louis and LA were higher than spec), so Gibson had a (slightly) better angle.

Again the big comparison being made, I believe, is the ability to throw extremely hard at a good pace, yet also field the position. Part of Gibson's toughness rep was also his pace; it was hard to see how he could keep it up, yet he did. Like Maddux in our own day, but throwing much harder, he never dawdled, which put additional pressure on the teams facing him. Never taking the deep breath, just coming at you. If Walker is able to keep up Maddux's pace with (potentially) Verlander-class stuff, he will be in the Gibson family of pitchers. He's got a ways to go, but it's an E-ticket ride for us.

And, ahem...

The kid's only been pitching since he was a Junior in High School. And barely that too:

“When I was a junior, I pitched like 20 innings – I was the shortstop. I had no clue what I was going to do. I thought I’d probably play junior college basketball or baseball,” Walker said.

“When I started my senior year, I was throwing in the mid-80s, but by year’s end I’d touched 95 mph. I really don’t have an explanation, other than I pitched more.”

From the excellent article by Larry LaRue.

July 13, 1962

Found my old notes of games. July 13, 1962. Gibson vs. Spahn. My grandparents no longer had season tickets; my grandmother moved into a nursing home that summer and we went back to help with things. My grandfather wasn't well and would die the following March. But because my birthday was in July, he said he would take me to a game. Friday the 13th. Gibson threw a 3-hitter against the Braves. Spahn pitched well allowing only 2 runs till the 8th, when he tired, allowed several more and was relieved. Gibson simply dominated. Final score 6-0. The game lasted just over 2 hours (found a site that says 2:24).

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