D is for Damon

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IcebreakerX's picture

Can be rephrased as 'unable to compensate for their margin of error'. Ibañez has always looked good on the typical, but when he looks bad, he looks off the wall awful. And what he screws up seems to have gotten worse as time wore on as he would on occasion botch a play that looks very easy, even though said play could be triggered as something as simple as a misread of the ball.

Damon, on the other hand, has always seemed to be reckless defender, and not necessarily a poor defender. He also parties hard, for what's it worth.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

That's what I did in the OF, compensate for my mediocre speed ...

It wasn't that I could run a straighter line than the LF'er next to me.  But I did "cheat" on the ball by getting my weight going in the right direction before the batter made contact.

..................

Maybe Damon doesn't pay a lot of attention out there, particularly when he's hung over.  I could buy that.

SABR Matt's picture

The reason they don't is that they misread where it's going to end up.  Some more than others.  Gutierrez almost never misreads the ball.  Damon seems to overrun the ball a lot when he's going laterally and he has trouble with balls down the line...there were FOUR such balls that doinked in there down the line dring the Yankees' post-season run that looked easily catchable and Damon just sort of jogged in front of them and played them on a hop like he didn't even care.

The graph in your post is interesting, but I put absolutely no stock in attempts to decide which balls Damon should or should not catch...the UZR approach is flawed from the get-go...defensive positioning in NY is different than elsewhere because their left area is larger and the outfielders play shifted a bit more toward RCF a shade left of center and more toward the LF line...it changes the proportions...ESPECIALLY for the left fielder.  Maybe you could hide Damon in LF in Seattle by doing something similar with Gutierrez and Ichiro playing shifted on most pitches...but Damon just doesn't look like he would keep up the defensive synergy we had going most of 2009 in the outfield to me.  I believe he's a -8 to -12 run outfielder form this point onward.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

And I understand that if there's to be any banana shape to the route, that the bow in the curve should face the wall, not the infield.  As mentioned above, I play(ed) OF.

My question is, when you guys ever SEE the bow in the route's curve face the infield.  I almost never do.

I suspect that if I can't perceive much (any) difference in ML outfielders' routes, that a lot of other fans can't, either.  But it's a very popular condemnation... :- )

SABR Matt's picture

You're correct that I can't generally see that sort of thing with the average CFers...if you're a decent fielder, you can't visually tell why you're not a gold glover by watching for route running oddities.  But like the Melky Cabreras and the Lastings Milledges of the game...I, with my bad eyesight, can see them running weird looking routes.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Like one ball out of 10 or 20... :- )

It is true that some OF's don't read the spin of an unusually-slicing ball all that well, especially if they're not fulltime at the position  (Cabrera and Milledge would probably qualify as less-experienced).   Which is why you'll see a guy like Ichiro hesitating to move over.

Not sure how many of those balls occur, though.

SABR Matt's picture

...that would be something like one i every 6-10 balls hit to the average CFer and less frequently for the corners because the ball usually hooks predictably down the lines...based on how often I see Cabrera look like a doofus out there trying to catch what appear to be routine depth fly balls.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

For what it's worth :- ) I'm much happier with the density of the conversation here, as opposed to discussions you usually see on Damon, Ibanez & Co.

Anonymous's picture
Submitted by Anonymous on

Doesn't Look so Mixed to me.
You're bullet points have:
- UZR trending downward the last three years,
- Fans see him as a below average defender,
- the "teams" that see him as a CF the last three years are the Yankees (known for horrible team D) and even they have been using more as a standin lately...for Melky Cabrera, hardly a defensive Wiz,
- and PMR has him average.

Against that all you need is exactly one defensive measure, BP's Rate, thinks he's golden, plus your bias that speed is all there is to OF defense and his Speed scores, so you claim that the jury is out.

Not sure I can jump on that wagon with you.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Into the phrase "all you need is exactly one defensive measure".

Those several points being:

  1. RATE is SUPERB on him
  2. Damon has recently been a CF (James principle:  a "tweener" is assumed to be good at the easier defensive position)
  3. Damon's SX is high
  4. I personally think he looks fine (as I correctly protested that Rauuuul looked better than his Safeco UZR's)
  5. PMR has him as exactly average
  6. The Yankees', Red Sox', and A's scouts, which teams all played Damon in CENTER field

That's hardly "exactly one defensive measure" refuting the jeering at Damon's defense. =)

.............

The burden of proof is, of course, on those accusing Damon of 250-lb. LF defense, because Damon's 6.8 runs per game are very real. 

UZR and RF's suggest that he's trending down, which would be consistent with his age (or leg problems in 2009).  But obviously the defensive indicators are not converging.

.............

That said, given Damon's age, UZR and savvy Bronx fans' perception of him ... if qualified ML scouts agreed that Damon was a major problem in LF, I'd knock -10 or so off his runs total out there.  I'm sure that's how GM's would approach this one, also.

 

SABR Matt's picture

...the reason most Yankees were anxious to get rid of Damon this off-season, for what it's worth, is that they felt he was starting to get beat by good pitching too often the second half of the year.

What's weird is that he appears to hit better when he's NOT being careful at the plate.  His two big power months in 2009, he had K/BBs of 22/9 and 14/7...the rest of the year, his K/BB was 62/55 and he OPSed .814 as opposed to .956 LOL

SABR Matt's picture

You realize with lines like "Seth Smith.  Do. It. Now." you're only encouraging my belief that you want to have his baby, right?

Taro's picture
Submitted by Taro on

It made sense in June '09 and its still the best solution IMO. :-)

I'm going to that USSM meet and I was going to ask Z about it personally.. but I hear guests don't get to ask questions this time. I'll report on the event though.

SABR Matt's picture

Even if you could ask him, he'd probably say something highly unhelpful like "well I think Smith is a good ballplayer, and I'd love to have him, but that would be up to the Rockies if they were going to make the kid available" or even less helpful "obviously, I can't comment on player moves that haven't actually happened yet, but yes, we'd love to have a guy like Smith around"...which wouldn't really make you feel any better. :)

justynius's picture

I'm not a big fan of any defensive stats based on observers arbitrarily deciding whether a ball was hit in a fielder's zone, which wipes out a majority of the sabermetric fielding stats.

One stat I have found to be accurate is "Total Fielding Runs Above Average per 1,250 Innings" (more commonly known as "Rtot/yr"). The statistical calculation makes logical sense, and the results are very consistent with perceived defensive value.

Here's Damon's past 3 seasons in Rtot/yr as a LF. The exact median for a position is 0, and +5/-5 is usually about the threshold where you can say a player was good or bad.

2007 - 10.2
2008 - 26.4
2009 - 6.7

For his career, Damon is a -4.0 as a CF and a 11.5 as a LF. This would seem to support the assertions that Damon was a below average defensive CF, but an above average (though declining) defensive LF.

I'm personally against the M's signing Damon because of his offense. The speed/instinct players age the worst, and Damon's power production was a result of the new Yankee stadium (.288/.380/.509 at home, .269/.332/.444 on the road). For his age 36 season in Safeco, I think we'd be looking at a very strong possibility for a .750 OPS type season.

---------------------------------

On another note related to Rtot/yr, I needed to put together a list of the MLB CF's in this stat for another discussion. Surprisingly, this stat suggests Gutierrez is not only a strong defensive CF, but the best in baseball by a wide margin.

Player: 2009 Rtot/yr, Career Rtot/yr
Carlos Beltran: 11.2, 6.6 **2008
Marlon Byrd: 1.5, -1.3
Melky Cabrera: -12.4, 5.4
Mike Cameron: 5.2, 7.6
Jacoby Ellsbury: -8.6, -1.9
Dexter Fowler: -14.7, -15.0
Kosuke Fukudome: -1.6, -6.9
Curtis Granderson: 3.5, 3.9
Franklin Gutierrez: 25.4, 24.8
Tony Gwynn Jr.: -13.7, -10.0
Josh Hamilton: -1.1, 5.9 **2008
Torii Hunter: 13.8, -2.3
Adam Jones: 3.1, 10.0
Matt Kemp: 4.2, -0.4
Mark Kotsay: -7.4, 0.5 **2008
Nook Logan: 8.6, 10.3
Nate McLouth: -2.1, -5.5
Cody Ross: -13.6, -4.4
Aaron Rowand: 3.2, 4.6
Grady Sizemore: 8.2, 7.3
B.J. Upton: 6.5, 12.1
Shane Victorino: -6.9, 1.2
Vernon Wells: -9.9, -0.9
Chris Young: -0.5, -5.7

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Probably make a front-pager out of that.

How long's it been, whiz kid? ...

justynius's picture

Hey Dr. D....

It has indeed been quite a while. I'm always reading up on DOV; only recently figured out all those links to Seattle Sports Insider were in fact because it's your own blog. :)

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Well, I'd enjoy SSI considerably more if it was laced with Justynius wit & wisdom :- )

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