SSI Cliff Lee Top 10 Comps List - 2

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SABR Matt's picture

He just pitched for some absolutely miserable team defenses, and is underrated by the inclusion of unfair park adjustments.

His career DNRA+ is 120...Washburn's is 105.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Defense (with park) explains the whole thing?

Am not doubting you -- would love to see the mystery solved -- El Sid's teammates had good ERA's, though, right?  What do you do with that fact?

And El Sid had what, 9, 10k's a game... isn't that type of pitcher less dependent on context?

::taps chin waiting for answers::

Yea, unfair ADJUSTMENTS would explain a lot, 'cause he had some nice ERA's, right?

SABR Matt's picture

Here's the thing about park factors.  They're sued incorrectly.  By everyone.

When it comes to pitchers...the more batters you keep from putting the ball in play, the less the park matters to you.  DNRA solves this problem by only park-adjusting the HR rate per fly ball in play at each park.  Some of the most extreme shifts from career ERA+ to career DNRA+ come from pitchers who pitched their whole lives (or most of them) in parks that are extreme...the Astrodome, the old Yankee Stadium, Coors Field, etc.

Pitchers Parks cause pitchers to be underrated by ERA+

El Sid pitched for the Mets in one of the longest-running pitcher's parks of his time (Shea).

Those low ERAs were EARNED...his K rate and modest HR/Fly rates ensure it.  His teammates less so.  The same is true of Doc Gooden.

Here's SId Fernandez' DNRA+ line:

  • Year    Lg      Team    Outs    DNRA+   Marker
  • 1983    NL    LAN    19    51    -0.24
  • 1984    NL    NYN    267    99    1.13
  • 1985    NL    NYN    513    130    7.67
  • 1986    NL    NYN    609    114    5.81
  • 1987    NL    NYN    472    109    3.77
  • 1988    NL    NYN    568    127    7.84
  • 1989    NL    NYN    662    127    9.16
  • 1990    NL    NYN    547    137    9.47
  • 1991    NL    NYN    131    141    2.45
  • 1992    NL    NYN    643    132    9.98
  • 1993    NL    NYN    356    137    6.24
  • 1994    AL    BAL    339    90    0.36
  • 1995    AL    BAL    86    61    -0.83
  • 1995    NL    PHI    194    122    2.41
  • 1996    NL    PHI    192    135    3.29
  • 1997    NL    HOU    15    96    0.05

You can see the persisten bias in favor of El Sid...

misterjonez's picture
Submitted by misterjonez on

or if it's already been beaten to death, but Cliff Lee threw a LOT more cutters (12.4%) last year than in any previous campaign (second highest was 6.3% in '06) and precisely double his career average (12.4% in '09 vs. 6.2% career).  He also threw more changeups, but not ridiculously more (16.6% '09 vs. 12.5% career).

I can't really figure out 2008.  It doesn't look like much is different, aside from the uptick in FB velocity (90.5 in '08 when each of the preceding four seasons saw <80.5).  If I had to guess, I'd say he changed his arm slot a bit to get more downward drive on his FB and ended up getting the increased velocity at the same time.  The GB% is markedly higher after '08, and it came right out of the flyballs.

All of this said, I have no idea how to read info like fangraphs has up.  I can theorize as well, or better than most people, but I don't really know for certain what happened specifically to Cliff Lee The Pitcher.  All I can say is, he's definitely changed his game, and it's payed off big-time.  He's not just getting better results with the same skillset, he's significantly altered his game and it's paying off big-time.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Dave Allen, I think, published an article that noted a drastic change in the movement of Lee's cut fastball.  That was the key.

It's not really going to show up in the Pitch Type data, except in terms of better run values.  Neither will command.

Fangraphs' data is superb, but certainly not comprehensive.

....

As to '08, undoubtedly the new, devastating cutter was getting identified as a fastball.

misterjonez's picture
Submitted by misterjonez on

if you assume that the 'missing' cutters are in there dragging the FB average velocity down.  He has essentially the same velocity in both years.

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