SSI Cliff Lee Top 10 Comps List - 1

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SABR Matt's picture

I think Lee is at the high end of performance for that family.  As long as his arm doesn't give out from the workload (and I don't see why it would...he was always an innings eater other than 2007 and that injury was unrelated to his pitching form).

I think you can pocket the 450-480 innings from King Felix and Cliff Lee...and since my goal was to get 1000 innings from my starting rotation, we need 520-550 more out of four pitchers (RRS, Morrow, Fister, Snell).  I think we can manage that.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

mull over the disconnect between Lee's 130-160 ERA+'s and the 110-115's scored by that family in general.

You put your finger right on the first big question there...

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

In fact, we solicit suggestions to create a 12- or 20-man comp list ... perhaps to replace El Sid, maybe Candelaria or Higuera...

No list is perfect, of course, because there weren't ten Cliff Lees in baseball history.  There's been one.  But this list, we daresay, is a little better than one that includes Kirk Reuter :- )

................

I scoured a long list of LHP's with great CTL ratios and went way down to 2:1, so if there are many comps we missed, we'd be surprised.

But would love to be surprised.  No 95 mph fastballs, now.

The young Barry Zito was considered.  Two pitches, slower FB, but still... ya think?

SABR Matt's picture

...much the same way you worry about Lee.

You make an interesting point re: injuries on these guys.  Andy Pettitte avoided such problems, so it didn't happen to EVERYone...but still...that's a little sobering.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

In his first 3-4 years was one of the best couple of pitchers in the AL.  He dropped way off at about 25.

That's a second variation on the overuse syndrome:  maybe you don't get hurt, but you do lose the crisp fastball and have to trick them from then on.

Notice Pettitte's huge year in his 30's, following his half-season off...

SABR Matt's picture

Interesting.

Pettitt'es DNRA+ line:

  • Year    Lg      Team    Outs    DNRA+   Marker
  • 1995    AL    NYA    518    106    3.52
  • 1996    AL    NYA    663    125    9.28
  • 1997    AL    NYA    729    157    18.34
  • 1998    AL    NYA    631    101    3.20
  • 1999    AL      NYA     595     90      0.83
  • 2000    AL    NYA    624    118    7.14
  • 2001    AL    NYA    611    127    8.71
  • 2002    AL    NYA    413    141    8.05
  • 2003    AL    NYA    638    123    8.25
  • 2004    NL    HOU    254    133    4.11
  • 2005    NL    HOU    656    147    13.72
  • 2006    NL      HOU     650     119     7.22
  • 2207    AL      NYA     661     120     7.79
  • 2008    AL      NYA     612     124     8.04
  • 2009    AL      NYA     584     100     2.97

 

It looks to me like Pettitte was overused in 1997, got very tired for two years...but then gradually came all the way back and sustained his success for a long while.

SABR Matt's picture

...it's not like overuse doomed Pettitte to never being the same and forever after resorting to tricking the hitter.  It screwed him up for two years...

Not that that helps us...if Lee is overused, the Mariners aren't going to benefit from having him.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Once burned out, it's a constant see-saw battle between the pitcher and the dead arm from then arm.  The pitcher might get the upper hand, to greater or lesser degree, or might never get all the juice back, or might snap a tendon...

Pettitte illustrates the see-saw nature of the battle for a fresh arm...

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

He has the template for it...

Bill James sorts out pitchers in this family by judging their physical gracefulness.  He thinks that the Moyers and Lees of the game have an almost ballet-like quality to their motions.

RRS seems more muscular and powerful to me, to be able to develop that sort of hair-fine command... I'm just thinking out loud.

SABR Matt's picture

He doesn't seem that muscular too me...but he definitely doesn't land like a butterfly. :)

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