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POTD Francisco Liriano

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CA's picture
Submitted by CA on

Doc I would think that his mechanics have as much to do with his velocity swings as his arm not being able to do it anymore.  He is VERY similar to Santana whom I've watched quite a few times the past couple of years and who also sees some fluctuation in fb velocity.  Ben Sheets gamble at the front of a rotation? Certainly not, though I would move some parts to see if he could get tweaked back into form.  Again, I believe that his slider is the key.  When you see it getting in on RH hitters consistently, you will know the kid's back.  

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

You mean what bro'... that his stroke is inconsistent?  or...

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When you opine that he's not a Sheets gamble, do you mean that you believe he's going to be back without much risk, or that he's not going to be as good as that if his arm bounces back...

CA's picture
Submitted by CA on

My point was that in no way would I acquire him for high dollars or prospects to fill a role at the front of my rotation ala Sheets.  My thought was that we are in a pretty good spot with our front 2 and have some room to gamble on a guy in the back of the rotation.  

As to his velocity concerns.. yes, I think that his mechanics are holding him back a bit.  With what I see, the moving parts and such limits his ability to consistently use his lower body to drive towards the plate.  In essence, he's an arm thrower though by appearance he lunges somewhat.  Of course there are risks with smoothing action out too much, batters being comfortable, seeing the ball too well etc.

When we lose Lee after this year, it would be nice to have a legitimate candidate for his spot in the rotation for 2011 eliminating the need to gut the system or bankroll on someone else.  All that said, to me Lopez is too steep without another part coming back from the Twins.  

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

With that short-arm, corkscrew delivery, it's kind of like the lower body power is lost in the tranny somewhere...

As we all know, that doesn't mean that Liriano can't be great.  2006 (and the Santana comp) illustrate just how good he can be.

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I'm still not clear, after your last paragraph, whether you think Liriano is a viable candidate to take the 2 spot behind Felix :- )

Taro's picture
Submitted by Taro on

His velocity is low 90s not high 80s and reportedly better this winter. You can't post one of the highest SWS% in baseball without great stuff.

In Liriano's case I do think its just bad luck in '09 since he didn't have those problems in '08 and his stuff is far from hittable.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

When you say his velo is low 90's... how much vid did you watch, or games in '09?

I do see that Fangraphs has him at 91.7 but this must be one of their wonky little glitches.  You might as well say that French and Fister are 91.7.  :- )  This guy routinely clocks 87 and 88.  And he is loathe to get any more of the plate than the very edge of the black.

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Anyway, whether Liriano throws 88 or 92, hitters fight to get to the plate against it.  He's -1.99 last year with the FB, meaning that his ERA is 6.25 - 6.50 when throwing the heater.

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There's a semantic debate here.  Liriano's "stuff" is terrible flying through the air, but he does have tremendous deception, so is that "great stuff"?

If Luis Tiant or Orlando Hernandez or Hideo Nomo twisted around four times, did a cartwheel, threw the ball between their legs and an 88 fastball went by the hitter, is that "great stuff"?  :- )  I guess it depends on your semantics...

Same thing with a submariner.  The guy might throw 87, but the angle is weird and he strikes out 1 per inning.  Great stuff?  ::shrug::

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I do know that I'd hesitate to call it great stuff when his ERA is 5.80 :- )  It's not like he's Brandon Morrow trying to figure the game out.

Taro's picture
Submitted by Taro on

Mistakes happen when other pitches or two-seams get mixed into the data. You don't see guys luck into a lows 90s average fastball.

I just wouldn't call for a sky high BABIP or HR/FB from here on out. Its not a Carlos Silva or HoRam sitaution. I think the '08-09 Liriano is a solid league-average pitcher and that there is a good amount of upside beyond that. Hes also an EXCELLENT match for Safeco (he nukes LHPs and has had trouble vs RHs the last two years).

 Liriano was FOURTH in all of MLB last year in SwS% (with reportedly even more velocity returning this winter). The other guys in the top 15 include Harden, Vasquez, Lincecum, Verlander, Hamels, Dempster, Sabathia, Santana, Lester, Felix, Billingsley, De La Rosa, and Jon Sanchez. Of that group Liriano and Sanchez are the only two who aren't excellent SPs. Liriano ranked 4th among that group.

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