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From DH to C: Generic diff is 30 runs. For M's it's 40 to 60

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Sandy's picture
Submitted by Sandy on

Is it really so hard to understand that the easiest, safest, cheapest, fastest, most reliable way to improve an MLB team is to begin where you are currently weakest? 

Nice job, Doc.

M's Watcher's picture
Submitted by M's Watcher on

The next logical step would be to trade Olivo for useful parts.   He's got a year left on his contract, and might not be thrilled being upstaged by the new kid.  And Jaso bats lefty, so a good fit to give Montero a day off from catching against a righty pitcher.  So, who might want Olivo?

Cool Papa Bell's picture

You would have to pay all of his salary to get anything in return, and even then it wouldn't be much. It would be far better to keep him because he is the perfect mentor for Montero. He's Latino, seems to have a good attitude, has tons of experience yet isn't a Jorge Posada-type former star whose past glory makes him feel entitled. Olivo is both nearing the end of his a career and Montero is truly special so it shouldn't be a problem for Miguel to adjust to being a bench player.

Not to mention that it's always good to have depth, which the M's don't have at catcher.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

I count nine points there, all of which make a lot of sense...

Am not sure that I'm on the Olivo bandwagon for 2012, but it is definitely easy to imagine an Olivo/Montero friendship that creates a very solid situation behind the plate...

Point well taken that Miguel Olivo is hardly a Posada-style Entitled Vet (TM) though he appears to love the game and love playing every day.

.........

Had been hoping that we were past the Chris Gimenez experience, but on a personal level he has been a Wedge buddy from way back.

M's Watcher's picture
Submitted by M's Watcher on

Catchers are still hard to come by in MLB.  Some team will have a need and will value a guy like Olivo.  He's only owed $3.5M in 2012 with a team option for 2013.  That isn't a financial burden as, say, Figgy's contract.  Even if we have to throw in some money to offset the remaining contract, it is pocket lint, and we'd get something of value in return.  Otherwise, we'll be carrying three C's on the 25, and have an inflexible bench.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

If we traded Olivo, went with Montero-Jaso, and then Montero took a fastball off the hand and broke a metatarsal.

We'd have Jaso and ? and what would we cough up for Miguel Olivo then?

Cool Papa Bell's picture

But that doesn't mean the M's could get anything of real value in return. The M's signed him as a free agent and so presumably they were the highest bidders. Therefore, not many teams viewed him as being worth $3.5 million in 2012, if any at all. He then had a really poor season last year so his value is likely even lower.

That means that even if the M's paid all of his salary, the best they could get would be a player worth 2 or 3 million dollars. That would either be a veteran bench player who was barely above replacement-level or an extremely fringy prospect (a Triple-A utility guy or reliever). That doesn't get the M's anywhere.

So for the reasons stated, Olivo is worth keeping around. If the M's want someone who is truly useful, they would have to trade someone like Vargas who has quite a bit of surplus value (at least $10 million worth even if the M's don't contribute any money).

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

But yeah.  It's not like you're going to get a Jose Campos back for Olivo under any circumstances.

Would definitely view Jason Vargas as the M's most substantial trade chip right now.  He's a reliable $10-12M worth of LHP performance making only $5M, so there have got to be teams that are a PERFECT match for that. 

moethedog's picture

Yep,

 

I understand the RC value of Montero behind the plate.....but I also understand the (typical) wear and tear that certainly digs into a catcher's multi-year performance....and probably into any single year's numbers.

I'm not worried about his defense...it will be just fine.  I worried about maximizing his offense.

It's entirely reasonable to assume you lose Montero in the lineup 20 times a season if he C/DH rather than 1B/DH.  Hitting 3rd/4th, that's likely to be 90 PA's. I hate that.

And, Doc, I'm not sure if I got it right, but I think you were assuming that if I 1B Montero then Smoak was out.  Not so.  I play with that arrangement until I find who is most comfortable at 1B and who is most comfortable at DH.  I'm playing them both.  And I'm playing Carp 150 games in LF, until he shows me hes not the homer/RBI guy he was last year.  I'm giving him the entire year to disprove that, too.

 

moe

 

 

Cool Papa Bell's picture

If you move Montero away from catcher, you are going to get dramatically less production overall even if you get more AB's from Montero because you will then be playing Olivo/Jaso A LOT more, and they are worse players than Mike Carp and Casper Wells. That's the whole point of this post.

Take a look at Mike Piazza's first 5 seasons with the Dodgers. He missed a lot of time in that span, yet still averaged 6.5 wins per season. In addition, Eric Karros had a 111 OPS+ in that time. How much money do you think the Dodgers would have had to have spent in order to get an above average hitter to play catcher and replace Karros' production? They would have had to spend a ton, if such a player were even available.

Spectator's picture

Z mentioned Gimenez a couple of times on the radio show.  I think they might be viewing him as the answer to the emergency catcher issue.  Wedge loves him, if I recall.

Z also mentioned that Jaso might have some position flexibility ( ... um, OK, he played 1b a handful of times ... ).

Sounds like they have an inkling of what they want to do.  Montero and Jaso share C with Gimenez as the extra benchie, allowing you to DH Montero on non-C days.

That would lead to Olivo getting moved.  He won't have tons of value, but he won't provide any versatility -- so see what you can get for him.

Gimenez is not as bad as his stats look (nor is Jaso as bad as his 2011 stats look).  I think the notion has some promise.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

Delicious complexity to the variations, and personally I have no idea what the precedents are for handling it well.  Joe Mauer's situation doesn't apply, did we decide?

Possibly the M's need to think in terms of one less pitcher.  Both Furbush and Beavan are well capable of munching 100+ innings out of the bullpen -- and let's say it's a bit risky health-wise, so are those two guys the pivot points of your future?

M's have arms backed up the pipe for 500 yards.  Use them to create extra bench space?

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