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Branyan, Dunn, and TTO Hitters

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Sandy - Raleigh's picture
Submitted by Sandy - Raleigh on

Quibbles #1:

Yes, TTO hitters DO run hot & cold. It's just a different flavor. TTO players *require* excellent pitch recognition. So, they will continue to lay off balls -- and the walk rate typically won't slump. This is kind of like saying speed never slumps. While true -- the speedster cannot steal 2B if he isn't on first -- so a slump at the plate CAN (and will) reduce steals.

For TTO players, like anyone, they will have periods where they are "in the zone", and during such periods, they will cluster their HR counts -- AND their Ks will often ebb. When they aren't seeing the ball or swinging as well, the HRs vanish and the Ks rise. The walks are the most constant of the three -- but once the OPPOSITION smells the blood of a slump, they will nibble less. This is a self-regulating ballet, however -- as the less the pitchers nibble, the greater the odds that a HR will fly soon.

===

Quibble #2:

While I agree that Seattle needs SOME of these guys -- I have a growing belief that "variety" in a lineup has distributive value. I think ANY lineup that gets too mono-dimensional is likely to start having problems. I think Seattle's fixation on BIP machines *AND* Oakland's fixation on TTO players BOTH can become problematic when done to excess.

The simple truth is that if the opposition figures out a "winning" counter to EITHER lineup -- that counter is more easily applied to the ENTIRE lineup. I believe that Seattle having the fewest walks and fewest whiffs is ultimately detrimental, AND Oakland leading the league in walks and whiffs is similarly detrimental. This is one of those cases where I believe that "conventional" wisdom may have stumbled upon a truth that trumps pure INDIVIDUAL PLAYER analysis.

The best lineups consist of ....

1) High OBP guy with speed
2) decent average guy who can take a few pitches, or hit behind a base-runner
3) 4-tool player, who can mash, draw a walk, and hit for average
4) Slugger who may fan a lot, but scares you even when he's in the on-deck circle
5) versatile hitter with some power and maybe some speed
6) empty .300 hitter who can take a walk
7) empty .300 hitter who can't
8) fast guy with strange ideas about what constitutes a strike
9) whatever you've got left

The different TYPE hitters present a different set of challenges to the pitcher. This makes the pitcher's job more difficult. It also means that if you find something that works against hitter #1 -- it is LESS likely that the same thing will work against #2.

Heck, for years managers have tried to tweak their rotation based on the concept that facing different style pitchers on different DAYS could be beneficial. So how come nobody considered that facing different (or same) style hitters in the same game matters, (outside of righty/lefty)?

SABR Matt's picture
Submitted by SABR Matt on

No sabermetrician would say that defense is getting "more and more important" as in the time series is going up as each year passes. We're getting better at measuring defense and splitting defense between pitching and fielding and as we get better we realize more and more than JAMES WAS WRONG...that his figures were too low to BEGIN with. That defense used to account for 30% of the game and now accounts for "only" 22% if your analysis is not biased by initial assumptions as James' was.

Defense does continue to get less important with time, but please don't mischaracterize sabermetricians' arguments...we're not arguing that defense is getting more important in today's game...we're arguing that it ALWAYS WAS more important than previously thought. And I stand by that argument.

Spectator's picture
Submitted by Spectator on

Speaking of defense, D-Wak says he loves it so much he might move Lopez to 1B for good. I was intrigued by that notion when we had slick-fielding and interesting lefty bat Luis Valbuena, and didn't have Branyan-Shelton on the roster.

Now, I don't really see it, and JZ's roster moves indicate that's not what he sees as the plan. Interesting (and positive), though, that the manager is looking hard at the connections between the defense and the pitching staff.

Spectator's picture
Submitted by Spectator on

Back to offense, how do you classify guys like Mike Cameron, who walk and strike out a lot, but hit more doubles than HR? Two-and-a-half outcomes?

I ask because that is what Michael Saunders is profiling as, and as much as I like him, I'm not sure where that ends up without the great CF defense.

Whereas, Halman has the strikeouts and the HR, but not the walks (but he also has the speed factor).

Sandy - Raleigh's picture
Submitted by Sandy - Raleigh on

Interesting topic.

The basic fact is that back in 1920 pitchers fanned about 4 per game -- 23 outs to the defense 4 to the pitcher.
In the past decade, it's just under 7-K per game for pitchers -- 20 outs to the defense 7 to the pitcher.

What is strange about the discussion of the relative importance of pitching versus hitting is that the discussion BEGINS with the contention that pitchers are 2/3 of the equation, (the initial Jamesian guesstimate).

From my perspective, it is brutally obvious that discussion should START with the defense being "responsible" for percentage of outs relative to the pitchers. In the 4-K 20s, 85% defense - 15% pitching. In the 7-K 21st century, (and it's really more like 6.5, but even numbers are just easier to quote and remember), 74% defense, 26% pitching.

That doesn't mean that tells the entire story -- but as a foundation block it's simple, direct, and 100% supported by the raw data, before the statisticians get their hands on it. But, if anyone were to even SUGGEST that fielding "might" be 74% of the defense/pitching ratio, they're going to get ridiculed right out of cyberspace.

Typically, there is the foundation argument that "most" outs are "routine", and that since anybody could get to them, they should be ignored. (However, for some reason we don't bother to differentiate the "routine outs" and the "defensive wizard outs" or the "pitcher is awesome" outs for the batters. In THAT arena, an out is an out, (except for those people who attempt to pry-bar the "productive" out into the equation -- but of course, they are largely ignored and ridiculed as well. Does somebody want to try and factor out the "routine" hits from all the offensive players and then attempt to convince us that the result is a MORE accurate representation of offensive players? We've got the BIP results -- so obviously if we give EVERY hitter a .300 BABIP and adjust their stats accordingly - we'll get a MUCH more accurate picture of how good players actually happen to be ... won't we?

Of course, the out ratio between pitchers and fielders is not a constant. But, the focus on the almighty K still tends to overhwhelm the conversation. Pitcher X doesn't get enough Ks - he's no good. Let's get a better pitcher, so our defense won't HAVE to be better. (The fact that a stellar defense actually helps EVERY pitcher, 7 days a week, while the stellar starter helps the team for 2/3 of a game every 5th start doesn't seem to ever gain traction).

Philly and Tampa met in the World Series. Philly was 11th in the NL in Ks - Tampa was 4th in the AL. Tampa happened to have the best DER in all of baseball. Philly was an offensively minded team, (2nd in runs scored), but they were 6th in the NL in DER while only 11th in Ks. (Just fyi - Tampa was 1st in the AL in Ks in 2007 - and last in DER and finished last in the East).

World Series Participant DERs in recent years: (overall DER - not by league)
1st and 10th in DER
2nd and 6th in DER
3rd and 7th in DER
2nd and 4th in DER

A truly massive offense can make the difference and allow a "modestly above average" defensive team to reach the Series. But, the general truth is this -- the fastest and easiest and most EFFICIENT way to lower runs scored is to improve your TEAM defense.

Nobody has a good feeling for HOW that is done. So, the focus of fans, pundits, and GMs, remains on pitching and hitting, while defense is mostly ignored.

SABR Matt's picture
Submitted by SABR Matt on

Agreed with the spirit of that post entirely, Sandy.

I don't understand where James got his initial assumption about pitchers being 70% of the defense, but I think that's the one area where his intuition badly BADLY missed.

taro's picture
Submitted by taro on

I've gotta agree with Matt and Sandy here.

Bill James is a legend, but where exactly did he pull this random 15% out from? Intuition is one thing, but you can't assume something like that.

Recent research seems to suggest more of a 50-30-20 split (20% being defense). Under that split, arond 30% or so of a position player's value is in his defense. Its not as important as offense, buts its pretty important and needsto be a big part of the ? when acquiring a position player.

Thats not to say I'm against acquiring Dunn. I think he makes a lot of sense in this market as a 1B (hes being more undervalued than I thought he'd be), but not as a LF in Safeco.

At $12-15mil per year and only 4 years hes a really nice get.

SABR Matt's picture
Submitted by SABR Matt on

Indeed...and at first...Dunn isn't that bad. He's a little below average...he's just not fast enough to be an outfielder.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

++ Yes, TTO hitters DO run hot & cold. It’s just a different flavor. TTO players *require* excellent pitch recognition. So, they will continue to lay off balls — and the walk rate typically won’t slump. This is kind of like saying speed never slumps. While true — the speedster cannot steal 2B if he isn’t on first — so a slump at the plate CAN (and will) reduce steals.

For TTO players, like anyone, they will have periods where they are “in the zone”, and during such periods, they will cluster their HR counts — AND their Ks will often ebb. When they aren’t seeing the ball or swinging as well, the HRs vanish and the Ks rise. The walks are the most constant of the three — but once the OPPOSITION smells the blood of a slump, they will nibble less. This is a self-regulating ballet, however — as the less the pitchers nibble, the greater the odds that a HR will fly soon. ++

Agree with that. We're mostly referring to the fact that a team that draws lots of walks isn't going to look as bad, for as long, as teams like the 2007 M's often will.

All athletes get in and out of the zone.

Personally, I'd have a harder time with "the zone" if I were a low-walks player hitting balls at people. But that's just noodlin'.

jemanji's picture
Submitted by jemanji on

++
While I agree that Seattle needs SOME of these guys — I have a growing belief that “variety” in a lineup has distributive value.++

Oh, sure. In my world we don't deal Ichiro for Dustin Pedroia :- )

The Mariners have had virtually ZERO Cust-type players -- because they as an org have held such antipathy for the batting strikeout.

Gimme two or three or four of 'em and we're still going to have our share of Latin-style hackers.

SABR Matt's picture
Submitted by SABR Matt on

Right...I don't think anyone disagrees with you that we need some more TTO batters to put the fear into the opposing pitcher and to get on base. I think it's a positive sign that the Mariners took Branyan this winter...I don't think Zduriencik shares the old guard's fascination with batting average or productive outs. :) You can almost count on the guy he grabs to plug the LF or DH hole being another BB+HR threat that's flying under the radar due to poor BA or bad luck or some other attribute that's negative (some issues with previous teammates, bad defense (I'm thinking in particular of guys like Dunn).

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