POTD Hisashi Iwakuma - the Cone, Mussina, Hudson family

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Q.  Okay -- a located 90 fastball, two breaking pitches one left and one right, and a wipeout forkball.  Who is like that in the majors?

A.  Also known as the Mike Mussina / David Cone type family.  Precious few pitchers execute 4+ pitches effectively.  Precious fewer do it while using a forkball.

Here is the complete list of the ten ML pitchers who, at any time during 2009-11, threw 10% forkballs or more (Iwakuma throws 20%).  As you can see, there are varying degrees of competence within any given family ...

 

SP % forks, splits
Halladay 16%
Penny 14%
Kuroda 14%
Pelfrey 13%
Haren 13%
Dempster 12%
Hudson 6%
Jeff Neimann 10% in 2012
Zambrano 15% in 2009
Iwakuma 20%

 

As a group, these guys make a fair amount of money, especially in All-Star bonuses.  

There you go.  That is the list of ML pitchers who feature splitfinger and forkball pitches.  As you can see, it's a template that leads the template field.

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COMMENTS:

Zambrano - featured the split in 2009 and 2010 only during his career, running 3.77 and 3.33 ERA's in Wrigley Field

Neimann - Borderline if he belongs here; features FB and power curve 85%, mixes in slider and fork a bit. Good pitcher.  

Halladay - throws four pitches in David Cone style:  FB 25%, cutter/slider 45%, fork 15%, and curve 15%.  What a template

Penny - Has no glove-side breaking pitch (no slider or cutter).  Everything is FB, curve, fork

Kuroda - Borderline if he belongs here.  Very weird 3-pitch arsenal:  Fastball, slider, forkball.  Excellent SP

Dempster - See Kuroda

Mike Pelfrey - Uses Kuroda arsenal.  Along with Ryan Franklin, serves as the bottom floor of what this kind of SP can be

Haren - 3 pitches like Kuroda ... instead of FB-SL-SF, uses FB-cutter-SF, which is far more effective

Nolasco - true 4-pitch, forkball SP.  Would be a star except for execution from the stretch (terrible ERA with RISP)

Tim Hudson - also a true 4-pitch guy at this point

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It's possible that F/X will wind up seeing Hisashi Iwakuma as a 3-pitch guy, if it reads his Shuuto as a fastball.  But if it did, it would still see the ratios as 50% fastball, 25% slider, 25% forkball - many fewer FB's than the other guys' cutters and FB's combined.

(By the way, I was surprised to see that Dice-K came to America and stopped throwing slow stuff.  It was all fastball-cutter-slider, three pitches instead of four or five.  Sigggghhhh.)

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Q.  Is our old friend Ryan Franklin in this category?

A.  As a starter, he was the lower boundary for this category, but Franklin was an extreme flyball pitcher.  Iwakuma is a groundball pitcher.

Honestly, you've got a ways to go to --- > find a 4-pitch "Polished Pro" guy with a forkball, who throws grounders.  It's just a very sophisticated game, one that is difficult to execute, and obviously difficult to hit.

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Q.  So who are Iwakuma's comparables?

A.  He is in the Mussina / Cone family, but red-shifted towards ground balls.  None of these other guys throw a GB-happy Shuuto.  Also, Iwakuma's splitter induces a bizarro GB ratio, and even the FB gets topped.  Iwakuma's GB ratio is over 2:1.

If you're using GB + Diverse Arsenal as the paradigm, you get Tim Hudson, Derek Lowe and Trevor Cahill.

All things considered, I'd go with Hudson as the best comp ... if Hudson threw 20% forks.

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Q.  Is this template really such a slam dunk?

A.  If Iwakuma were becoming an Oakland Athletic, my main hope would be that he wasn't going to execute his pitches crisply in 2012.  I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope that his game, properly executed, wouldn't work.

If Iwakuma throws his shuuto the way he does on YouTube, and if he locates his fastball, and if he mixes his pitches 40-20-20-20, he is going to be effective.

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Klat Categories: 

Comments

Taro, IceX ...Q on Iwakuma's velocity ...

He came back quickly last year on the shoulder, and at times was down to 86 mph ... I think his last start was 86 average and the one before that, 89 or somesuch.

At 89 mph he is an impact pitcher in the bigs ... Jered Weaver is frequently 88-90 mph and it hurts him not one whit...

If Iwamura is tossing 85-87 mph that is a different situation; that makes him Brad Radke plus a forkball ... also a good pitcher, probably, but it makes his job easier if the hitters have to respect his fastball to some extent ...

You have a feel for where Iwakuma is likely to be, after a winter off?

1

Taro's picture

Taro

Velocity declined late in the season and hes never been durable with the arsenal and mechanics. Early-mid season he was the same guy hes always been.

Good buy low IMO, but fragile and needs to be treated such.

He needs to be babied. Skipped starts occasionally, pulled quicker, etc.

2

Just how we pictured it ...

Reminds of Cone and Mussina as they got on in their careers.  The combination of tilted slider, and the splitfinger or knuckle curve, takes a lot out of the shoulder.

Cone and Mussina, even on their very last legs, weren't exactly Anthony Vazquezes :- )

3

Looks like the M's are going to land him. Iwamura himself stated that his best fit is in Seattle and is closest to signing a deal to play there.

This is a great move. He sounds like quality player yet shouldn't cost a ton because he prefers Seattle and there isn't much of a market for him. Could be one of the best value signings of the offseason. This will increase the team's flexibility since they can more comfortably trade away their young pitching. And if they keep all of their pitchers there won't be as great a need to rush them.

It should also give Jack more leverage with Fielder, since he can say that he already has made a big aquisition and so he doesn't need to sign another major free agent.

4

Taro's picture

Taro

I'm with Doc on this one. I think Iwakuma is a very nice value signing and he wants to come to Seattle. As long as you baby him.

I'd take Iwakuma in the middle-end of that list Doc.

Nevermind on Cespedes. After watching more vid of him hitting not as sold on the bat.

5

Hey CPB, Taro -

Suppose you're playing fantasy baseball next year, and Iwakuma is throwing an easy 89-91 next spring -

Where do you take Iwakuma on draft day 2012, cf. to Latos, Bedard, Gio, Matt Garza, Buehrle, Saunders, Dempster, Fister and whoever ...

6

Hershiser + 5 mph at this point.

The guy was bitten by a radioactive giraffe.  Once every 3 starts he leaps a plateau.

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DaddyOWe are a .500 team, but becoming a tough .500 team that can play with the best in any given series. A few moves would make this team more dangerous, but only dramatic breakouts would make us any sort of true contender. Make the moves, Jack. We want to be more dangerous this year.8 hours 54 min ago
Bat571The model for Smoak that I would hope for is Sean Casey - about the same size, but threw rightie and batted leftie only. His best years were ~ .320/.380/.520 with a career of .302/.367/.447/.814. Take ~,020 off the BA, but keep the OBP/SLG about the same and that would be an optimal pattern for Smoak. I don't think we'll see a .900 OPS from him except in a possible career year, but a steady .380 OBP and .440 SLG is a very valuable cog if you have more slugging elsewhere, especially given the level of defense Smoak is showing this year.10 hours 28 min ago
SpectatorThe type you're suggesting, Drago is Dave Magadan (.288/.390/.377). He did play for 16 seasons, but I'm not sure he would have if limited to only 1b (he played slightly more at third). And he was pretty much a part-time player after age 30. But he wasn't a worthless guy with his on-base skill. I don't know if any teams would have committed to him long-term as their primay first baseman though. Much better to have Olerud-level (.295/.398/.465) with basically the same OBP skill but with that upgrade of ISO. Not sure if Smoak can get there, but that's what you'd want to see from him now in my view.11 hours 3 min ago
DragoIf Smoak can claw his way up to .300/.400/.400 is that acceptable for a 1st baseman? Could you win your next championship with a player like that?12 hours 56 min ago
rick82Baby steps. Yesterday we had a big performance by Maurer. Today, Smoak unleashed his power to go along with his eye. But the catcher's position. That's a problem.13 hours 57 min ago
SABR MattOn the bright side...the Mariners are still fighting like lions and coming back on teams late...plus Farquhar looks better than even I thought13 hours 59 min ago
Gordon Gross2 days, two walkoffs by the home team. We're just not QUITE as good as the Indians, apparently. Hopefully Felix and Iwakuma can make it seem like we are by getting a series split.14 hours 31 min ago
malcontentWell shucks.14 hours 32 min ago
malcontentWhat is it about the Indians? Oliver Perez has been amazing, so he gets the first 2 batters 0-2 and gives up hard hit balls...14 hours 33 min ago
MtGrizzlyTought spot for Medina.14 hours 35 min ago
malcontentAnd Raul, at this point, after having never been appreciated by the Mariners blogosphere, deserves a gift basket from Dave Cameron.14 hours 43 min ago
Gordon GrossHow big was Morales hitting that ball so hard...right at the 2B? If he'd been on that would have been the game. Or at least the chance to close out the game. Gotta figure out some way to make the pen hold up for 2 more innings and scratch out a run next inning.14 hours 44 min ago
malcontentPerfect time for Justin's second homer!14 hours 46 min ago
Gordon GrossLOL!! Back to back dingers! Go Ibanez and Smoak! Oh wait, now we don't have a bullpen...14 hours 46 min ago
Gordon GrossAnd y'all are seeing why Lonnie and I were thrilled that Danny'd added the cutter last year and that's what made Jack's scouts sit up and take notice and get him thrown in to that trade. It REALLY makes a difference in his game.14 hours 52 min ago
malcontentHas Brendan Ryan gotten back to just being bad with a bat?14 hours 55 min ago
rick82C'mon Smoak...even Brendan Ryan can clear that wall.15 hours 6 min ago
Gordon GrossHOLY... Ryan hit a HOME RUN??15 hours 10 min ago
SABR Mattway too many fly balls to the opposite field today15 hours 32 min ago
Gordon GrossYep. Joe's giving up nubbers while throwing a career-high 120 pitches trying to help the team. Not his fault. He fought today and gave up 2 runs in a normal pitch count. We just don't have a bullpen right now to save him, and our offense today is utterly worthless.15 hours 36 min ago